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Bill & Patsy
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Message 7459 - Posted: 15 Oct 2008, 12:46:58 UTC - in response to Message 7458.  

. . . a mix of test and normal WU\'s.


Aah yes - but did you notice that the test units were ones that were created a month ago and which have already been round the system and been cancelled as not needed?
I think there is room for more disappointment here.

That\'s right. Why are people downloading any work right now? Haven\'t the project managers fooled you enough by now? As I suggested earlier, people should avoid this project until they get the message and keep their promises. They are holding back nearly 1/5 of the credits that I\'ve earned since they promised that they wouldn\'t screw us again, as they did before.

If you participate right now you put yourself at risk, and you put everyone else at risk by letting them get away with breaking their promises.

And as far as the \"science\" is concerned, you can crunch for other projects that are actually doing science. That\'s what I\'m doing until they do what they said they\'d do.

Cosmology@Home is a cool concept. I want to support Cosmology@Home -- after they prove they deserve it.

Why would you do any more work until they do what they said they\'d do, and until they prove that we can trust them?
--Bill

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Profile Jord
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Message 7460 - Posted: 15 Oct 2008, 14:35:58 UTC - in response to Message 7459.  

As I suggested earlier

You suggested it earlier, yes. Please keep it at that and let people decide for themselves whether or not they want to crunch the work available.
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Nothing But Idle Time

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Message 7461 - Posted: 15 Oct 2008, 14:36:23 UTC - in response to Message 7459.  

....people should avoid this project until they get the message and keep their promises. They are holding back nearly 1/5 of the credits that I\'ve earned since they promised that they wouldn\'t screw us again, as they did before. If you participate right now you put yourself at risk, and you put everyone else at risk by letting them get away with breaking their promises.


My view, philosophically, is that no project has to promise anything since you are donating your resources without precondition. But when promises are made they should be kept else respect for the project suffers. The real issue here is what you say...

And as far as the \"science\" is concerned, you can crunch for other projects that are actually doing science. ... Cosmology@Home is a cool concept. I want to support Cosmology@Home -- after they prove they deserve it.


After months of bad management and failures, indeed,
\"why would you do any more work until they do what they said they\'d do, and until they prove that we can trust them?\"


I would rephrase it as \"why would you contribute to a project whose track record is abysmal and leads one to believe that project management is not serious about producing anything? Academia must be heaven for if you had this track record in industry your head would be on the chopping block and the rest of you in the unemployment office.

end of editorial comment
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Message 7462 - Posted: 15 Oct 2008, 14:45:25 UTC - in response to Message 7459.  

They are holding back nearly 1/5 of the credits that I\'ve earned since they promised that they wouldn\'t screw us again, as they did before.


I get the impression most people who post on this site on a regular basis wanted the project to work first and then sort out the credit business. It was unfortunate that the problems hit hardest at the end of one academic year. With a new term and a team member progress now has defintiely been made. I hope the project has now turned a corner.

The credit issue is now being addressed, apparently, see this thread

I was one who gave up processing this project when nothing appeared to be happening earlier this summer. Since then the issues have started to be addressed and I think it merits my time and effort once again.

Sometimes there is no quick fix, despite \"how easy is that\" feeing those outside the project team may have. It should be remembered the project in corporate IT terms is run on a \"shoestring\" - no specialist database administrator, etc. All the staff have other jobs /studies and so spend only a small part of their week on the project. As an experienceed IT project manager I wouldn\'t have been surprised to see quite a few more people involved given the number and variety of fixes needed.

Also critically there appears to be nowhere to test the server code except on the live machine. This means fixes will take longer and we will see all the problems as fixes are attempted. It can be very frustrating, I know, but having come this far I think it is worth sticking with it, at least whilst there is a project team sticking with it too!

Bottom line is anything can fixed quickly if you you throw people and equipment at the problem. If the money is in short supply - things will take longer.

Phoneman1
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Message 7463 - Posted: 15 Oct 2008, 14:50:14 UTC - in response to Message 7460.  

As I suggested earlier

You suggested it earlier, yes. Please keep it at that and let people decide for themselves whether or not they want to crunch the work available.

Ordinarily I mind my own business but I cannot let your statement stand without comment. Surely people will decide for themselves whether or not they want to crunch available work. However, it is not required that such a decision be made without input from others. You are trying to prevent Bill and Patsy from swaying the decision of others because you perceive it as detrimental to the project. Frankly, the project has done much on it\'s own to ruin its good will; I don\'t think Bill and Patsy can do any further harm and the tone of your response to them is condescending.
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Brian Silvers

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Message 7465 - Posted: 15 Oct 2008, 22:18:20 UTC - in response to Message 7462.  


Sometimes there is no quick fix, despite \"how easy is that\" feeing those outside the project team may have. It should be remembered the project in corporate IT terms is run on a \"shoestring\" - no specialist database administrator, etc. All the staff have other jobs /studies and so spend only a small part of their week on the project. As an experienceed IT project manager I wouldn\'t have been surprised to see quite a few more people involved given the number and variety of fixes needed.


I beg to partially differ. People, including the project, got sick of me saying that what should\'ve been done during the whole version 2.05 -> 2.12-2.14 process was to flat out revert everything back to the way it was with 2.05, science and all, and then test out incremental changes going forward. I stick to that as the proper call, even if hindsight is 20/20. The reason is because of what you stated - the project did not have the staff and/or, bluntly, the talent to forge ahead at full speed. They did anyway, and we have suffered along with them as they have had to come to terms that something went very badly wrong.

In IT circles, you would typically have a \"lessons learned\" session from this. What\'s troubling to me is that there does not appear to be any of that going on. The reckless mass cancellations have happened quite a few times, most of them without warning and done without the built-in capabilities of BOINC to do cancellations. Proof of that is how you keep having people with newer clients asking what to do with the tasks they have remaining on their systems. Those tasks never will be used for \"the science\", at least not in that incarnation of the task. The project could send out cancellation requests and then give it 1-2 days for straggling reporting, but they don\'t use the options that are available to them, probably because they don\'t know the option(s) exist.

Uggghhhhhhhhh...

I\'ve been burned twice by the mass cancellations. Twice bitten, thrice shy. I\'m sitting this one out...and hoping that a more methodical and rational approach is taken...eventually...


Also critically there appears to be nowhere to test the server code except on the live machine.


That is a poor design and, while tolerable at first, cannot be a crutch forever...
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Message 7468 - Posted: 16 Oct 2008, 15:20:25 UTC

It all goes back to the fact that Scott was hopelessly incapable of running this project, and as long as he\'s still around sticking his fingers in things, it will continue to have problems.

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Message 7469 - Posted: 16 Oct 2008, 15:21:25 UTC - in response to Message 7459.  
Last modified: 16 Oct 2008, 15:29:36 UTC



If you participate right now you put yourself at risk, and you put everyone else at risk by letting them get away with breaking their promises.

And as far as the \"science\" is concerned, you can crunch for other projects that are actually doing science. That\'s what I\'m doing until they do what they said they\'d do.



Just what \"risk\" are you or other being put in by participating in this project?
Are they distributing virus\'s?, causing your computer to crash(you read the disclaimer did you not? ) I just don\'t get it? This is a voluntary DC project, nobody is forcing you to participate.

All projects have their problems, some more than others.

And it sounds like I might have choose a bad time to come back and do some more work here, but we will see.

I am kind of wondering however, how this http://boincstats.com/stats/user_graph.php?pr=cosmology&id=7964 happens..
I know that Banshee and others have not crunched for several months.. But it was not just Banshee, it was many others as well... just easier to spot on his account.
over 2 million credit - Were these WU\'s stuck somewhere? Not complaining, just interested to know what went on here ?
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Message 7475 - Posted: 18 Oct 2008, 14:41:19 UTC

I was under the impression this project was re-starting in production mode. Is there any target date from which there will be steady work? Else I will need to move the resources I have here to other projects. Thanks and good luck!!
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Message 7476 - Posted: 18 Oct 2008, 15:06:06 UTC

yes have been without work on a few machines for 2 days now and have moved them elsewhere for now....

any idea when were gona have work again????? 2 days ago yuns said you were starting up the work gen. on regular wu\'s but theres 0 work ready to be sent...

saying something is better than nothing at all.
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Message 7478 - Posted: 19 Oct 2008, 9:24:46 UTC

Work is now avaliable.Hooray1
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Message 7479 - Posted: 19 Oct 2008, 11:00:10 UTC - in response to Message 7478.  

Work is now avaliable.Hooray1


And everything is running smoothly ^^

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Message 7480 - Posted: 19 Oct 2008, 16:53:58 UTC - in response to Message 7479.  

Work is now avaliable.Hooray1


And everything is running smoothly ^^


I\'m going to try a few tasks here now, but no major committment...
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Message 7486 - Posted: 20 Oct 2008, 2:43:50 UTC - in response to Message 7462.  
Last modified: 20 Oct 2008, 2:46:33 UTC

I get the impression most people who post on this site on a regular basis wanted the project to work first and then sort out the credit business. It was unfortunate that the problems hit hardest at the end of one academic year. With a new term and a team member progress now has defintiely been made. I hope the project has now turned a corner.

The credit issue is now being addressed, apparently, see this thread

OK. Thanks. I feel pretty stupid giving it another chance now - like Charlie Brown running again at Lucy\'s football. But based upon what you cited, Phoneman1, I\'ll trust that the pending credits will be granted and that the project will once more deserve my support. Conceptually, it will be great if Cosmology is successful, and I want to be part of that. So I have started accepting work units and am crunching again for the project.

If they don\'t deliver on all these issues, I will be but one of many, many others who will bid farewell for sure. (And I\'ll feel like a fool for having taken the bait...)
--Bill

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Message 7492 - Posted: 21 Oct 2008, 1:02:49 UTC - in response to Message 7486.  


OK. Thanks. I feel pretty stupid giving it another chance now - like Charlie Brown running again at Lucy\'s football. But based upon what you cited, Phoneman1, I\'ll trust that the pending credits will be granted


Well, since all old / pending / \"didn\'t need\" stuff has been wiped from the result database (my task list is clean as a whistle with only the new tasks I downloaded the other day), it seems like the answer to the forced cancellation is \"so sad, too bad\" to anyone who had already completed a task and was just waiting on a wingman...
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Bill & Patsy
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Message 7493 - Posted: 21 Oct 2008, 1:16:52 UTC - in response to Message 7492.  


OK. Thanks. I feel pretty stupid giving it another chance now - like Charlie Brown running again at Lucy\'s football. But based upon what you cited, Phoneman1, I\'ll trust that the pending credits will be granted


Well, since all old / pending / \"didn\'t need\" stuff has been wiped from the result database (my task list is clean as a whistle with only the new tasks I downloaded the other day), it seems like the answer to the forced cancellation is \"so sad, too bad\" to anyone who had already completed a task and was just waiting on a wingman...

Yup. Same thing just happened to me. Finished work just wiped out and no credit given. So yes, I\'m a sucker, and I really feel stupid. They lied to us again.

So, I have aborted all remaining work units and detached from the project.

Good Bye.
--Bill

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Profile Benjamin Wandelt
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Message 7494 - Posted: 21 Oct 2008, 5:12:27 UTC

By way of clarification -

The new scheme (sans HR, simplified and higher performance) is not yet operational - we are still operating under the old scheme, but hopefully only for about 1 week until the new validator is ready and tested. At that point the old problems should be gone (though undoubtedly there will be new ones when we test the new scheme).

All the best,

Ben
Creator of Cosmology@Home
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Brian Silvers

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Message 7495 - Posted: 21 Oct 2008, 5:39:42 UTC - in response to Message 7469.  
Last modified: 21 Oct 2008, 5:41:32 UTC


I am kind of wondering however, how this http://boincstats.com/stats/user_graph.php?pr=cosmology&id=7964 happens..
I know that Banshee and others have not crunched for several months.. But it was not just Banshee, it was many others as well... just easier to spot on his account.
over 2 million credit - Were these WU\'s stuck somewhere? Not complaining, just interested to know what went on here ?


As I mentioned in another thread, the credit granting script has problems. Some people get WAY more than they should\'ve, then others get zippo.

Funny how each of those high credit days coincides with an attempt to grant credit to \"everyone\" for a project mishap...

@Ben - PLEASE keep checking on things this time around. Take ownership of the project and don\'t let it die on the vine... It\'s a worthy project, but you can\'t just set it to auto-pilot...
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Profile Benjamin Wandelt
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Message 7499 - Posted: 21 Oct 2008, 15:03:10 UTC - in response to Message 7495.  

Hi Brian -

the point of the changes is that the overhead of pairing up results and detailed validation is moved from the current online, database-intensive, bottleneck creating system that affects our participants to an off-line system where we check the results after the fact.

So your problem will no longer occur under the new scheme.

All the best,

Ben
Creator of Cosmology@Home
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Brian Silvers

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Message 7508 - Posted: 21 Oct 2008, 21:39:45 UTC - in response to Message 7499.  

Hi Brian -

the point of the changes is that the overhead of pairing up results and detailed validation is moved from the current online, database-intensive, bottleneck creating system that affects our participants to an off-line system where we check the results after the fact.

So your problem will no longer occur under the new scheme.

All the best,

Ben


I hope that works out best for you too... Make sure you\'re not sacrificing data integrity for uptime.
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