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Message 3098 - Posted 4 Oct 2007 3:49:00 UTC

    Last modified: 11 Oct 2007 0:55:29 UTC

    Discuss Cosmology@Home credit here. Please keep discussion along the lines of "your 50 credit scheme goes too far" or "your 50 credit scheme doesn't go too far enough". Please do not discuss credit philosophy and grand credit schemes over which I do not have any control.

    Clarification: There's been some confusion about what can and can't be discussed here. You may compare credit here to credit at other projects. However, you may not argue about "being in it for the credits" or "being in it for the science" or any shenanigans like that.

    Edit X2: Discussion about credit philosophy. Post there for general credit stuff, not here.
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    Message 3102 - Posted 4 Oct 2007 4:31:31 UTC - in response to Message 3098.

      Discuss Cosmology@Home credit here. Please keep discussion along the lines of "your 50 credit scheme goes too far" or "your 50 credit scheme doesn't go too far enough". Please do not discuss credit philosophy and grand credit schemes over which I do not have any control.

      Nice Futurama reference!
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      Message 3104 - Posted 4 Oct 2007 6:31:19 UTC

        It's all part of the discussion as long as there are BOINC stats sites.

        The "cross-project stats parity" nutz will always tell you that your credit system either awards too much or too little credit. They are never happy.
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        Message 3109 - Posted 4 Oct 2007 12:32:37 UTC - in response to Message 3104.

          Last modified: 4 Oct 2007 12:33:22 UTC

          It's all part of the discussion as long as there are BOINC stats sites.

          The "cross-project stats parity" nutz will always tell you that your credit system either awards too much or too little credit. They are never happy.

          I agree with Angus on this one! IMHO your present 50 value is about right. We have some boxes that claim more and some less. There is also some variation in WUs of course. We use the standard BOINC client on all machines....Cheers, Rog.

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          Message 3113 - Posted 4 Oct 2007 16:39:18 UTC

            It's good.
            That's all !! :D

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            Message 3137 - Posted 6 Oct 2007 23:40:10 UTC

              I'm happy to GET credits, it's still alpha phase as far as I know. I wouldn't worry too much Scott, they can always come back when it's mainline.
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              Message 3139 - Posted 7 Oct 2007 0:21:41 UTC - in response to Message 3137.

                Last modified: 7 Oct 2007 0:37:52 UTC

                I'm happy to GET credits, it's still alpha phase as far as I know. I wouldn't worry too much Scott, they can always come back when it's mainline.



                Is receiving credits a big issue in your situation? In looking at your active hosts all but 2.5% of completed units have been awarded credit which doesn't seem like much.

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                Message 3140 - Posted 7 Oct 2007 11:02:29 UTC

                  Please keep the thread on-topic, as Scott described in his original post. Don't go into personal discussions, or into discussions about the importance of credits in general.
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                  Message 3141 - Posted 7 Oct 2007 16:16:49 UTC

                    I've said so in the other thread as well:
                    On my machine setup (C2D-E6750@3.6, ubuntu7.04, BOINC 5.10.8) I get too much.

                    I've got 3 projects with more than 40 Credits/hour in my stats: Seti-Opt, QMC and Cosmology.

                    Next best are around 30 C/h: CPDN, SIMAP, Einstein, SAP, ABC.

                    I claim about 22 C/h, and the projects roughly in that area are: RCN, malaria, WCG, Xtreme, Chess960 and Lattice

                    I get reasonably less (down to 14 C/h) on the following ones: Spin, Pirates, Leiden, BRaTS.

                    For my machine 30 credits would be the "right" amount, but I know that usually Linux isn't taken as the standard, as most crunchers use Windows. In the beginning Linux was a lot faster than Windows per WU, if that's the reason for the difference still, it's OK.

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                    Message 3150 - Posted 7 Oct 2007 23:51:27 UTC

                      Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 0:24:11 UTC

                      Fourth try on this, since I keep getting modded off the board:

                      I *feel* I am not getting enough credit on this project. The credit awards per WU should be much greater for my special CPU/OS combination, perhaps an order of magnitude.

                      Saenger likes to compare credit granted on this project with other projects, with the idea that all BOINC projects should award credit in lockstep. That's his opinion.

                      My opinion is that THIS project is free to award whatever they want, withour regard to discussion of credit awarded by other projects.
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                      Message 3154 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 0:38:40 UTC

                        Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 0:43:11 UTC

                        Scott:

                        Please clarify what CAN and CANNOT be discussed in this thread, so your mod staff don't have to try to interpret for you, with the resulting inconsistent modding.


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                        Message 3156 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 1:31:08 UTC - in response to Message 3141.

                          I've said so in the other thread as well:
                          On my machine setup (C2D-E6750@3.6, ubuntu7.04, BOINC 5.10.8) I get too much.

                          I've got 3 projects with more than 40 Credits/hour in my stats: Seti-Opt, QMC and Cosmology.

                          Next best are around 30 C/h: CPDN, SIMAP, Einstein, SAP, ABC.

                          I claim about 22 C/h, and the projects roughly in that area are: RCN, malaria, WCG, Xtreme, Chess960 and Lattice

                          I get reasonably less (down to 14 C/h) on the following ones: Spin, Pirates, Leiden, BRaTS.

                          For my machine 30 credits would be the "right" amount, but I know that usually Linux isn't taken as the standard, as most crunchers use Windows. In the beginning Linux was a lot faster than Windows per WU, if that's the reason for the difference still, it's OK.


                          You are lucky with that machine then Saenger,
                          I am a bit envious, but even so you have a range from 14 to 40 over the projects that you do, with Cosmology at the top hence you think it over claims.

                          My range is from 12 to 30 with Cosmology well below my top but double my lowest, so I think it is claims about right.

                          My AMD X2 4800+ (Windows) running Seti Enhanced (Optimised by NWSN) only gets 17 to 18 Cr/h about the same as the "standard" app, so no advantage for me. So your 40+ per hour is amazing to me.

                          QMC on 4800+ around 22 to 30 cr/h, on Opteron 285 (Linux) about 24 to 30 cr/h.

                          Cosmology on the Opteron 285 averages about 23 to 24 cr/h (a spread of 14 to 40 cr/h per WU, few of the 40 cr/h ones though).

                          CPDN on the Opteron between 17 to 20 cr/h (20 on the new optimised app).

                          Einstein on 4800+ is 16 cr/h, on the Opteron was 21 cr/h on old app now 14 cr/h on the new app.

                          Rosetta around 13 to 16 cr/h on both computers.

                          LHC around 14 to 15 cr/h on the Opteron.

                          Spinhenge only gives about 13 cr/h

                          Lattice only give me around 12 cr/h.

                          Therfore I say that Cosmology with an average of 23/24 for my standard Opteron (running Linux) is good and balances well with the other projects that I run (although Spinhenge and Lattice need a kick up in granted credit).

                          It is obvious that faster (later models) and particularly overclocked machines are going to get far more per hour than other older computers, and may think the project is therefore granting too much credit.
                          From the other side of the coin, from people who thought they had a fast machine till the new ones came along (and there are a great many of these), find they don't get a huge amount of credit compared to the new machines and to them the project may not be granting enough credit.

                          It is a two edged sword, the balance could tip either way.
                          Trying to get parity with the other projects will be virually impossible due to the nature of each project. There will be a band from X amount on this project to Y on that project, which is why a number of projects are trying to aim for the middle if they can.

                          If on this project there were lots of the shorter WU's then that would screw the average to a much higher value and then may be deemed to be granting too much.

                          So at the moment Cosmology credit for me is good, not too high and not too low.

                          Thanks and have a good day.
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                          Message 3157 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 3:11:36 UTC

                            Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 3:23:49 UTC

                            Interesting how well the Semprons did.

                            22/hr on opteron 170 at 2.7 ghz (76 results) - Windows
                            27/hr on Sempron 3100+ @ 2.33 ghz (64 results) - Linux
                            26/hr on x2 4200+ @ 2.75 ghz (60 results) - Windows
                            27/hr on Sempron 2800+ @ 2.33 ghz (64 results) - Linux
                            19/hr on AthlonXP @ 2.25 ghz (29 results) - Linux
                            23/hr on opteron 165 @ 2.7 ghz (75 results) - Windows

                            vs 17/hr for Einstein (blend of all)

                            and

                            13/hr for Rosetta (blend of all)


                            ----

                            Then there's always this, the credit comparison matrix:

                            http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php

                            ----

                            Fill in the blank for the % reduction needed to be on par with other projects if this is the intent.

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                            Message 3159 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 4:40:09 UTC - in response to Message 3154.

                              Scott:

                              Please clarify what CAN and CANNOT be discussed in this thread, so your mod staff don't have to try to interpret for you, with the resulting inconsistent modding.


                              I've clarified at the top.
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                              Message 3163 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 13:22:22 UTC - in response to Message 3157.

                                Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 13:24:30 UTC


                                Then there's always this, the credit comparison matrix:

                                http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php

                                ----

                                Fill in the blank for the % reduction needed to be on par with other projects if this is the intent.

                                That is the best place to look for considering credit adjustments. From looking at that chart it appears that this project is granting nearly double the credit it should be.

                                edit: This fits in with my observations too. Since I am only running this project on my test hosts, my RAC should be about 55 but it is over 100.
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                                Message 3164 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 13:53:59 UTC - in response to Message 3163.

                                  Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 14:07:58 UTC


                                  Then there's always this, the credit comparison matrix:

                                  http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php

                                  ----

                                  Fill in the blank for the % reduction needed to be on par with other projects if this is the intent.

                                  That is the best place to look for considering credit adjustments. From looking at that chart it appears that this project is granting nearly double the credit it should be.

                                  edit: This fits in with my observations too. Since I am only running this project on my test hosts, my RAC should be about 55 but it is over 100.


                                  It's Amazing that you can come up with any kind of Observation by only turning in 2 or 3 Wu's every 2 to 3 Day's, yet you think the project should cut the Credits by 50% more.

                                  All I can say is I hope Scott doesn't Shot himself in the Foot like a few of the other Projects have done.

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                                  Message 3165 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 14:09:58 UTC

                                    Let's hope independence wins out over herd mentality.
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                                    Message 3168 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 16:18:57 UTC

                                      Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 16:43:12 UTC

                                      For what its worth I have 2 P4HT hosts running the stock Boinc 5.10.13 client that continually claim well over 50 credits (up to 80) on the longest work units. Hosts 524 and 445

                                      These same hosts claim middle of the road credit on benchmark based projects with multi-quorum the likes of LHC and Spinhenge.
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                                      Message 3169 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 17:02:54 UTC

                                        P4HT, Windows XP, 5.10.13, multi-project: Roughly 15% of all the CaH Wus I've ran claim more than 50 credits. Conversely it means 85% claim less than 50 credits, so I'm happy.

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                                        Message 3170 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 18:27:51 UTC

                                          Hopefully this won't be modded as being off topic, In the last 426 wu's processed on my acct 8 claimed a high of 40 credits most were well below that. I don't see a problem,,,,,,,
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                                          Message 3171 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 19:21:17 UTC - in response to Message 3170.

                                            Hopefully this won't be modded as being off topic, In the last 426 wu's processed on my acct 8 claimed a high of 40 credits most were well below that. I don't see a problem,,,,,,,

                                            Most of my WUs claim between 26 and 48. I do not know how many of them get restarted (and the clock resets) or that my new pc just gets them done faster. I just know that each WU gets 50 credits. No complaints from me.
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                                            Message 3172 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 21:32:54 UTC

                                              Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 21:34:39 UTC

                                              What I compare in the projects I run are the 64-bit clients. On my top machine these are some averages:
                                              - RieselSieve 64-bit Linux: 2900/day
                                              - Cosmology 64-bit Linux: 3500/day
                                              - ABC 64-bit Windows: 4800/day
                                              - Seti optimized 64-bit Windows: 5000+/day
                                              - APS 64-bit Windows: 5600/day

                                              Of course there are projects with only 32-bit clients where I get far less. But since this machine can handle 64-bit (all Core 2, most Pentium D and most recent AMD can), I prefer projects that get the most out of my CPU.
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                                              Message 3174 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 22:29:11 UTC

                                                Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 22:29:39 UTC

                                                When you talk about credits per hour, are you talking about per processor, or per computer? Just wondering.

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                                                Message 3175 - Posted 8 Oct 2007 22:33:46 UTC - in response to Message 3174.

                                                  Last modified: 8 Oct 2007 22:49:54 UTC

                                                  When you talk about credits per hour, are you talking about per processor, or per computer? Just wondering.


                                                  examples given ie:tutta55-per host
                                                  Acmefrog-per cpu
                                                  mine-per cpu
                                                  Saenger-per cpu

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                                                  Message 3185 - Posted 9 Oct 2007 20:20:14 UTC

                                                    I haven't carried out any scientific tests, but compared with the credit I get from other projects, my impression is that I seem to get enough credit here, and perhaps a little more to make me smile :0)

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                                                    Message 3189 - Posted 10 Oct 2007 4:31:05 UTC - in response to Message 3164.

                                                      The chart at http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php gets it's figures by averaging the credit ratios on the same CPUs. That is what I base my opinion on.

                                                      The cobblestone is defined as a certain amount of computation on a ideal reference machine. Trying to match that as close as possible is not following the herd it is implementing a standard.

                                                      The project can lose just as many participants by giving too much credit as giving too little.

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                                                      Message 3190 - Posted 10 Oct 2007 5:29:44 UTC - in response to Message 3189.


                                                        The project can lose just as many participants by giving too much credit as giving too little.

                                                        How so??

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                                                        Message 3191 - Posted 10 Oct 2007 7:33:37 UTC - in response to Message 3190.


                                                          The project can lose just as many participants by giving too much credit as giving too little.

                                                          How so??


                                                          I suggest we not go into this. That would lead the thread away from the purpose it is intended for.
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                                                          Message 3193 - Posted 10 Oct 2007 14:09:11 UTC - in response to Message 3191.


                                                            The project can lose just as many participants by giving too much credit as giving too little.

                                                            How so??


                                                            I suggest we not go into this. That would lead the thread away from the purpose it is intended for.


                                                            You're right, of course.....my apologies. However, Keck's statement does have a obvious 'spin' to it and I was curious.....Cheers, Rog.

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                                                            Message 3199 - Posted 10 Oct 2007 21:08:54 UTC

                                                              Last modified: 10 Oct 2007 21:12:28 UTC

                                                              To bring peace to this thread and forum, I've opened a credit discussion thread on the BOINC forums. If you've never been there before, you need to register separately, but at least you can discuss anything credit related to your heart's content, not necessarily credits for this project only.

                                                              The big credit discussion.
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                                                              Message 3212 - Posted 13 Oct 2007 2:04:49 UTC - in response to Message 3170.

                                                                Hopefully this won't be modded as being off topic, In the last 426 wu's processed on my acct 8 claimed a high of 40 credits most were well below that. I don't see a problem,,,,,,,


                                                                In the last 308 results that I have, I show 21 that have earned greater than 40 credits per hour, or 6.8%.
                                                                Without those 21 my average of 23/24 cr/h would be very much lower than this.

                                                                So if the already rare short work units become rarer or are removed then this is actually a quite low crediting project (as in under 20 cr/h on 285 Opteron), not a high crediting one.
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                                                                Message 3213 - Posted 13 Oct 2007 2:21:19 UTC - in response to Message 3212.

                                                                  Hopefully this won't be modded as being off topic, In the last 426 wu's processed on my acct 8 claimed a high of 40 credits most were well below that. I don't see a problem,,,,,,,


                                                                  In the last 308 results that I have, I show 21 that have earned greater than 40 credits per hour, or 6.8%.
                                                                  Without those 21 my average of 23/24 cr/h would be very much lower than this.

                                                                  So if the already rare short work units become rarer or are removed then this is actually a quite low crediting project (as in under 20 cr/h on 285 Opteron), not a high crediting one.


                                                                  From my understanding the ratio of short,middle,and long work should not change much but the credit given will be when everything is put in place.

                                                                  Also as has happenned in the past,twice,is pending work being cancelled causing a further drop of recent credit for those affected. If you factor that in long term so far the credit averages out in the ballpark of many other projects in my opinion.

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                                                                  Message 3216 - Posted 13 Oct 2007 9:53:00 UTC

                                                                    Ok, some observations based on the first result of my Core2Duo:

                                                                    Cosmology: 0,0152 credits/second
                                                                    Einstein (S5R2): 0,0066 c/s
                                                                    SIMAP: 0,0064 c/s
                                                                    climateprediction: 0,0076 c/s


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                                                                    Message 3220 - Posted 13 Oct 2007 16:46:55 UTC

                                                                      Hi guys

                                                                      Some of my team and me have problem with a lot of wu ...

                                                                      The claimed credit on some wu is higher than the granted crédit, what's wrong with these?

                                                                      Exemple:

                                                                      http://www.cosmologyathome.org/workunit.php?wuid=595637

                                                                      http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=594813

                                                                      http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=593583

                                                                      The time of calculation is long, 2h30 for a wu and 50 credits on a Core2Duo @ 3.2ghz, it's too low, few day ago the higher wu was calculated in 1h30 maximum

                                                                      Why the new units are so long, and why the granted crédit is the same as before?

                                                                      Thanks

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                                                                      Message 3221 - Posted 13 Oct 2007 19:02:50 UTC

                                                                        I just run my projects and get whatever they get.

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                                                                        Message 3222 - Posted 13 Oct 2007 20:20:49 UTC

                                                                          Looks like France is making a run on this project. To stay in the top 50 of average work done I need to bring online more computers. Good for them.

                                                                          tj

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                                                                          Message 3223 - Posted 14 Oct 2007 2:22:09 UTC - in response to Message 3220.

                                                                            Hi guys

                                                                            Some of my team and me have problem with a lot of wu ...

                                                                            The claimed credit on some wu is higher than the granted crédit, what's wrong with these?

                                                                            Exemple:

                                                                            http://www.cosmologyathome.org/workunit.php?wuid=595637

                                                                            http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=594813

                                                                            http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=593583

                                                                            The time of calculation is long, 2h30 for a wu and 50 credits on a Core2Duo @ 3.2ghz, it's too low, few day ago the higher wu was calculated in 1h30 maximum

                                                                            Why the new units are so long, and why the granted crédit is the same as before?

                                                                            Thanks


                                                                            I am finding the same thing. I think some parameters in some of the workunits are making some workunits take longer unless Scott has increased wu length without telling us.

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                                                                            Message 3226 - Posted 14 Oct 2007 11:10:08 UTC

                                                                              I noticed the same, the last three workunits on my Athlon X2:

                                                                              1265951 598846 13 Oct 2007 10:09:41 UTC 14 Oct 2007 10:41:11 UTC Over Success Done 9,058.40 39.82 50.00
                                                                              1260333 596072 13 Oct 2007 10:09:26 UTC 14 Oct 2007 10:41:11 UTC Over Success Done 10,053.64 44.19 50.00
                                                                              1256759 594367 13 Oct 2007 10:09:11 UTC 14 Oct 2007 10:41:11 UTC Over Success Done 5,286.62 23.24 50.00


                                                                              If this is normal, we need a credit system which reflects the CPU time more.

                                                                              Is it possible to pre-calculate how many integer/floating point operations are needed to crunch a workunit?
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                                                                              Message 3235 - Posted 14 Oct 2007 16:19:42 UTC

                                                                                Thanks guys

                                                                                I hope this will return to the normal very soon :)

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                                                                                Message 3243 - Posted 15 Oct 2007 5:34:18 UTC - in response to Message 3212.

                                                                                  Hopefully this won't be modded as being off topic, In the last 426 wu's processed on my acct 8 claimed a high of 40 credits most were well below that. I don't see a problem,,,,,,,


                                                                                  In the last 308 results that I have, I show 21 that have earned greater than 40 credits per hour, or 6.8%.
                                                                                  Without those 21 my average of 23/24 cr/h would be very much lower than this.

                                                                                  So if the already rare short work units become rarer or are removed then this is actually a quite low crediting project (as in under 20 cr/h on 285 Opteron), not a high crediting one.


                                                                                  My last statement about getting less short Wu's dropping granted credit has come true.
                                                                                  With all these long Work Units (some of which claim more than the granted amount of 50 due to their run times), cr/h has dropped from 23/24 to 20 cr/h, over the last 44 work units I have processed (one ran for 5 1/2 hours granting just 9.44 cr/h).

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                                                                                  Message 3245 - Posted 15 Oct 2007 18:05:09 UTC - in response to Message 3243.

                                                                                    Last modified: 15 Oct 2007 18:12:39 UTC

                                                                                    My last statement about getting less short Wu's dropping granted credit has come true.


                                                                                    Your completion times seem unusually long, more in line with an Opteron at 1.8 ghz vs stock of 2.6 on your Opteron 285. I would take a close look at other running processes to see what's going on unless you're deliberately underclocking.

                                                                                    edit: perhaps there's some cpu throttling enabled like C&Q in bios.

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                                                                                    Message 3252 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 6:24:12 UTC - in response to Message 3245.

                                                                                      My last statement about getting less short Wu's dropping granted credit has come true.


                                                                                      Your completion times seem unusually long, more in line with an Opteron at 1.8 ghz vs stock of 2.6 on your Opteron 285. I would take a close look at other running processes to see what's going on unless you're deliberately underclocking.

                                                                                      edit: perhaps there's some cpu throttling enabled like C&Q in bios.


                                                                                      Computer is OK and no throttling in place. I believe it is the Work Units themselves, as others are now saying how long Wu's are taking (over 4 hours on Core 2 Duo in another thread).

                                                                                      It is causing my RAC to reverse direction. Credit on a per WU basis for the length of time and amount of work done would be better, but I think Scott said there was problems with doing this.
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                                                                                      Message 3253 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 6:25:44 UTC

                                                                                        Last modified: 16 Oct 2007 6:36:37 UTC

                                                                                        I am curious to know if those people that say they are getting more credits than "x"."y",or"z" projects are taking into consideration that their times crunching are being lowered and their credit claims appear higher on reboots and restarts.If you reboot or don't leave in memory you may have crunched 5 hours rebooted took another hour and reported only 1 hour of work. Credit per time can only be calculated here taking into account that when reported a wu might say it took 1 hour when it really took 6.You have to run ALL work to completion every time due to the wrapper.Averages taken off the website don't mean didly because almost all of them are lower credit claimed,longer crunch times than reality. So when people give "averages" I just roll my eyes ;-)~
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                                                                                        Message 3263 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 12:49:40 UTC - in response to Message 3253.

                                                                                          I am curious to know if those people that say they are getting more credits than "x"."y",or"z" projects are taking into consideration that their times crunching are being lowered and their credit claims appear higher on reboots and restarts.

                                                                                          >>> I monitor my results fairly closely as I only have a few computers and a bit of spare time. I have not seen my "crunching being lowered and credit claims appear higher" due to any reboots or restarts (I run Linux and Windows for my projects and don't restart very often). Besides if it is happening as you say to all projects then credit claims can be compared to all projects as they all have the same problem.


                                                                                          If you reboot or don't leave in memory you may have crunched 5 hours rebooted took another hour and reported only 1 hour of work. Credit per time can only be calculated here taking into account that when reported a wu might say it took 1 hour when it really took 6.

                                                                                          >>> I leave all projects in memory. I have only noticed twice in the last year, where a WU in Boinc Manager reverts back zero in all stats and begins again. One was in CPDN where a running WU wiped its data in BM but the server kept all the Time Steps and the WU has kept going without error.
                                                                                          The second was the other day on Cosmology@home where I did happen to restart Boinc as it would no longer update completed WU's. Resetting Boinc fixed this but a Cosmology WU lost over 2 hours crunch time and reverted back to the start as if the checkpointing did not work. It completed after another 3+ hours and this is the time reported on the Web Site.
                                                                                          I have not noticed this behaviour before even after restarting Boinc or rebooting the computer.


                                                                                          You have to run ALL work to completion every time due to the wrapper.

                                                                                          >>> Not sure what you mean there, is not completing a WU also completing ALL work on that WU? Plus I can't report a WU if it has not completed.


                                                                                          Averages taken off the website don't mean didly because almost all of them are lower credit claimed,longer crunch times than reality. So when people give "averages" I just roll my eyes ;-)~


                                                                                          >>> In some instances this may be the case. As far as I have seen the times on the Web Site have matched pretty well with the time the WU took to process.
                                                                                          I am in a number of active projects and have very rarely seen what you have described, I have also read the forums for issues like this, so would not say it was as common as you imply.
                                                                                          If I had 100 completed Work Units of a project, containing both short length and long length work units, I am not going to list them all for people to see the differences. I will do an overall average of these WU's to see the effective output of my computer for that particular project, so "average" it must be.
                                                                                          If I have a problem with a certain WU then I will list that WU.

                                                                                          There is a list of projects comparing one to the other and the respective cobblestone per second of each project (I have forgotten its name and have lost the link), is in effect just "averaging" the work units from each project to get those results.

                                                                                          Sorry but you will have to keep rolling your eyes when I say average, I don't see another way to describe it.
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                                                                                          Message 3264 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 13:08:35 UTC - in response to Message 3169.

                                                                                            P4HT, Windows XP, 5.10.13, multi-project: Roughly 15% of all the CaH Wus I've ran claim more than 50 credits. Conversely it means 85% claim less than 50 credits, so I'm happy.
                                                                                            Recent longer WUs have changed my stats shown above: Instead of 15% of completed tasks claiming more than 50, it has risen to 30%. My last returned result took 9.3 hours.

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                                                                                            Message 3265 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 13:46:50 UTC - in response to Message 3263.


                                                                                              The second was the other day on Cosmology@home where I did happen to restart Boinc as it would no longer update completed WU's. Resetting Boinc fixed this but a Cosmology WU lost over 2 hours crunch time and reverted back to the start as if the checkpointing did not work. It completed after another 3+ hours and this is the time reported on the Web Site.
                                                                                              I have not noticed this behaviour before even after restarting Boinc or rebooting the computer.


                                                                                              You have to run ALL work to completion every time due to the wrapper.

                                                                                              >>> Not sure what you mean there, is not completing a WU also completing ALL work on that WU? Plus I can't report a WU if it has not completed.




                                                                                              Hey Conan the CAMB application at present works off of a windows wrapper,in other words it doesn't communicate with Boinc except through the wrapper therefore Boinc doesn't see CAMB's checkpoints or progress even though it is saved.When restarted cosmo picks up where it left off even though boinc says it restarts at 0 ...that is why you say the cp's failed but didn't.This is the only way cosmo works at the moment see here

                                                                                              Now if you understand how cp's work here now you will understand what I mean especially for someone who turns off their machine or reboots a lot. Their average times will be skewed.

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                                                                                              Message 3270 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 17:27:49 UTC - in response to Message 3252.

                                                                                                Computer is OK and no throttling in place.


                                                                                                The facts aren't adding up. Your system should run 2.6 ghz yet your primary wingman, host 4357, continues to complete 25% - 30% quicker even on the new ones. This could be explained by an extreme overclock on his system which is hidden,

                                                                                                but,

                                                                                                let's look at other wingman.

                                                                                                Here's a Sempron 3000 (stock 1.7 ghz approx) that nearly beats you:

                                                                                                http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=444590

                                                                                                Here's one that runs 2.0 ghz stock:

                                                                                                http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=568391

                                                                                                2 running at 2.4 ghz stock:

                                                                                                http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=559990

                                                                                                http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=567619

                                                                                                Finally one running at 2.6 ghz stock:

                                                                                                http://www.cosmologyathome.org//workunit.php?wuid=577979


                                                                                                All complete more quickly and by a substantial margin. While there's a chance that all wingmen examined here are overclocked I believe this to be unlikely.

                                                                                                Any explanation for this?

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                                                                                                Message 3273 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 18:28:38 UTC - in response to Message 3253.

                                                                                                  I am curious to know if those people that say they are getting more credits than "x"."y",or"z" projects are taking into consideration that their times crunching are being lowered and their credit claims appear higher on reboots and restarts.

                                                                                                  A reboot is about once a week at most, so no need to take this into consideration. Usually I look what's running and wait that little bit if a reboot seems necessary.

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                                                                                                  Message 3277 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 19:45:47 UTC

                                                                                                    I agree 100% with Conan
                                                                                                    Now do this. It will make your eyes roll!
                                                                                                    Open BOINC manager and look at a cached “ready to start” wu at the bottom and note the “To completion” time.
                                                                                                    Come back in a few hours and look at the “To completion” time again for the same wu. ???
                                                                                                    On my old PC (2.8 Celeron) this time increased from 03:28 to 06:42 in one day and the average time to complete a wu from 3hours to 6 – 9 hours. (A Pentuim II can produce more than 50 points in 9 hours crunching any other project)

                                                                                                    I’m enabeling “No new tasks”, wait for cache to run dry, revert back to my old project and “Roll my eyes”.
                                                                                                    Maybe Scott can give the real explaination for this. I understand this is an Alpha project but JRenkar rolling his eyes won’t solve this bug
                                                                                                    P.S. I also reboot about once a week at most.

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                                                                                                    Message 3284 - Posted 16 Oct 2007 21:19:53 UTC - in response to Message 3277.

                                                                                                      Last modified: 16 Oct 2007 21:22:56 UTC

                                                                                                      I agree 100% with Conan
                                                                                                      Now do this. It will make your eyes roll!
                                                                                                      Open BOINC manager and look at a cached “ready to start” wu at the bottom and note the “To completion” time.
                                                                                                      Come back in a few hours and look at the “To completion” time again for the same wu. ???
                                                                                                      On my old PC (2.8 Celeron) this time increased from 03:28 to 06:42 in one day and the average time to complete a wu from 3hours to 6 – 9 hours. (A Pentuim II can produce more than 50 points in 9 hours crunching any other project)

                                                                                                      I’m enabeling “No new tasks”, wait for cache to run dry, revert back to my old project and “Roll my eyes”.
                                                                                                      Maybe Scott can give the real explaination for this. I understand this is an Alpha project but JRenkar rolling his eyes won’t solve this bug
                                                                                                      P.S. I also reboot about once a week at most.


                                                                                                      I think you misunderstood me...I 'roll my eyes' when people say they get too much credit on average, because restarts cut down on what you claim versus how long it really took.So 'averages' don't work here unless you never reboot in the middle of a unit. :)

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                                                                                                      Message 3289 - Posted 17 Oct 2007 2:45:11 UTC

                                                                                                        Last modified: 17 Oct 2007 2:45:30 UTC

                                                                                                        http://www.cosmologyathome.org/forum_thread.php?id=231&nowrap=true#3288
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                                                                                                        Message 3339 - Posted 21 Oct 2007 22:41:36 UTC

                                                                                                          I'm increasing the credits for the new WUs to 100, since run times seem to have doubled in most cases. I'd rather err on the side of too many credits than too few.

                                                                                                          Please tell me any concerns.
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                                                                                                          Message 3343 - Posted 22 Oct 2007 6:34:51 UTC - in response to Message 3339.

                                                                                                            I'm increasing the credits for the new WUs to 100, since run times seem to have doubled in most cases. I'd rather err on the side of too many credits than too few.

                                                                                                            Please tell me any concerns.


                                                                                                            That's great news Scott,
                                                                                                            Thanks for that, even with you giving out 70 per job, the longer ones were only giving low/medium returns.

                                                                                                            With your great reponse to your crunchers concerns, (and even pre-empting them as in this example), is the reason I added another 2 computers to the project.

                                                                                                            Thanks again.
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                                                                                                            Message 3837 - Posted 6 Nov 2007 14:51:07 UTC

                                                                                                              Hi! Can someone check wu's 629084 and 627646? I would think credit would be given anyway, not zero credit?

                                                                                                              Thanks in advance,
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                                                                                                              Message 4274 - Posted 16 Dec 2007 1:12:46 UTC

                                                                                                                Just a quick comparison on my 3.0GHz P4 with HT on running XP. So far on only 2 Cosmology wu which have been granted 100c each, this machine is getting basically the same amount of credit as the optimised S@H app per day. Which is just under twice as much as I get on MalariaControl.net, (i.e MC only give 50% of the credit as I get here). Is the Cosmology app an optimised app based on processor capabilities or just a basic \'doze app?

                                                                                                                Live long and BOINC!

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                                                                                                                Message 4276 - Posted 16 Dec 2007 3:27:55 UTC

                                                                                                                  Last modified: 16 Dec 2007 3:32:00 UTC

                                                                                                                  500 credit in just over 24 hours....LOVE it.

                                                                                                                  2.6GHz with 1.5GB of RAM
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                                                                                                                  Message 4277 - Posted 16 Dec 2007 5:46:11 UTC

                                                                                                                    Here\'s a credit comparison: http://boincstats.com/stats/project_cpcs.php

                                                                                                                    Cosmology@Home is #3 behind TPS(?) and RieselSieve, but is still comfortably ahead of the remaining projects. I\'d say a good trade-off, especially since it\'s still in beta. ;)

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                                                                                                                    Message 4280 - Posted 16 Dec 2007 13:06:39 UTC - in response to Message 4274.

                                                                                                                      Is the Cosmology app an optimised app based on processor capabilities or just a basic \'doze app?

                                                                                                                      Just a standard application, Paul. No CPU specific optimizations.
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                                                                                                                      Message 4410 - Posted 7 Jan 2008 5:44:29 UTC

                                                                                                                        The Credit Uniformity Train Members dont give up easy. Yeez.
                                                                                                                        PS: Hi Saenger

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                                                                                                                        Message 4412 - Posted 7 Jan 2008 18:06:05 UTC

                                                                                                                          Honestly: I do not understand how credits are granted here. I find that the claimed credits are granted fairly enough so there is no need to add more to reach the magic (and not understandable) and uniform 100.

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                                                                                                                          Message 4413 - Posted 7 Jan 2008 20:21:23 UTC

                                                                                                                            Some you win on, some you loose on. All up it\'s pretty close to the optimised SETI app for overall credit. I get 100cs for 11,000 seconds and I get 100cs for 23,000 to 30,000 seconds of cpu time, to give a daily RAC of somewhere between 550 and 1000 for my old 3.0GHz P4 Prescott. With the optimised SETI app this machine has a RAC near 800 to 1000 and on Malaria Control which doesn\'t have an \"optimised\" app, this machine gets a RAC of between 350 to 400.

                                                                                                                            I must say that I\'ve not let this machine run Cosmo at 100% resource share to get a true daily figure, the numbers above are based around the wu\'s it\'s completed in the last 3 weeks.

                                                                                                                            Glad I\'m not a credit whore otherwise a very worthwhile project wouldn\'t get any of my CPU time......

                                                                                                                            Live long and BOINC!

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                                                                                                                            Message 4418 - Posted 8 Jan 2008 14:33:24 UTC

                                                                                                                              I\'m running Seti(optimized app) and Cosmology on the same box with the same resource shares. The last time I checked, a couple of weeks ago, they had a similar (BOINCStats)-RAC.

                                                                                                                              It is not interesting enough for me to keep a close watch. ;)

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                                                                                                                              Message 4419 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 4:31:35 UTC

                                                                                                                                Last modified: 9 Jan 2008 4:32:14 UTC

                                                                                                                                Let the credit wars begin!

                                                                                                                                Posted today on boinc_projects mailing list:

                                                                                                                                There is significant variation in average credit
                                                                                                                                per CPU second between projects: see
                                                                                                                                http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php

                                                                                                                                The following projects are giving more than 1.5X S at h\'s credit/sec:
                                                                                                                                QMC (1.59)
                                                                                                                                RieselSieve (4.3)
                                                                                                                                Cosmology at home (1.68)

                                                                                                                                ... and a number of projects are giving somewhat less (in the .7 range).

                                                                                                                                It is critical to the success of volunteer computing that participation
                                                                                                                                be based on factors like scientific merit - not points per CPU sec.
                                                                                                                                So can all projects please take steps to make their ratio
                                                                                                                                as close to 1 as possible (and no more than 1.2).
                                                                                                                                If not, I will eventually ask the statistics sites to scale down
                                                                                                                                the credit of projects with high ratios.

                                                                                                                                To adjust your ratio:
                                                                                                                                1) if you\'re giving fixed credit per WU,
                                                                                                                                or using the FLOPs-reporting API, change your numbers.

                                                                                                                                2) if you\'re giving credit based on benchmarks*CPU time (the default)
                                                                                                                                set the <fp_benchmark_weight> configuration parameter
                                                                                                                                to a value that\'s appropriate for your application: see
                                                                                                                                http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/ProjectOptions
                                                                                                                                If you\'re not sure how to do this, or it doesn\'t fix things,
                                                                                                                                please reply to this group.

                                                                                                                                -- David

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                                                                                                                                Message 4420 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 4:45:18 UTC - in response to Message 4419.


                                                                                                                                  Always got to be someone to piss in the pool so to speak.

                                                                                                                                  Is SETI feeling that it may be loosing contributors because of it\'s tightened down credit ?

                                                                                                                                  And Who is this \"David\" Is it David Anderson?

                                                                                                                                  If that graph is based upon plain optimized SETI it might make more sense.

                                                                                                                                  As a general rule, those who care about credits are going to optimize, those that don\'t, won\'t.

                                                                                                                                  So this chart
                                                                                                                                  http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php
                                                                                                                                  should be corrected to baseline with optimized SETI IMO.

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                                                                                                                                  Message 4421 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 5:35:21 UTC


                                                                                                                                    And Who is this \"David\" Is it David Anderson?


                                                                                                                                    Yes, David Anderson, Dr. BOINC.

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                                                                                                                                    Message 4422 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 8:55:26 UTC - in response to Message 4420.


                                                                                                                                      If that graph is based upon plain optimized SETI it might make more sense.

                                                                                                                                      As a general rule, those who care about credits are going to optimize, those that don\'t, won\'t.

                                                                                                                                      So this chart
                                                                                                                                      http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php
                                                                                                                                      should be corrected to baseline with optimized SETI IMO.



                                                                                                                                      I think the graph does not make a distiction between optimized and not optimized applications. Either way, the number of optimized apps versus the number of not optimized apps is bound to be low.

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                                                                                                                                      Message 4423 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 15:43:24 UTC - in response to Message 4422.

                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 9 Jan 2008 17:13:51 UTC


                                                                                                                                        If that graph is based upon plain optimized SETI it might make more sense.

                                                                                                                                        As a general rule, those who care about credits are going to optimize, those that don\'t, won\'t.

                                                                                                                                        So this chart
                                                                                                                                        http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_plugins/boinc/get_cpcs.php
                                                                                                                                        should be corrected to baseline with optimized SETI IMO.



                                                                                                                                        I think the graph does not make a distiction between optimized and not optimized applications. Either way, the number of optimized apps versus the number of not optimized apps is bound to be low.


                                                                                                                                        A few points here.....

                                                                                                                                        Though the # of optimized apps used at Seti may be lower than the non,the # of results crunched is orders of magnitude higher than the non....in other words active crunchers optimize.

                                                                                                                                        The referenced chart is just that a reference...I don\'t understand why scientists at Boinc are using this as a bible? That list is missing multiple Boinc projects such as LHC and RCN as quick examples....why are they only targeting the 3 projects QMC,Riesel Sieve,and Cosmology when that list is not comprehensive? When was the last update of that list? I don\'t see that either.I am getting more credits per hr in Milkyway than in Cosmo but the chart says I should be getting more than 50% greater in Cosmo so how accurate is using the chart for comparasins?

                                                                                                                                        How do they propose to deal with PS3\'s? Obviously they produce orders of magnitude greater credit than pc\'s and they are not targeted or even mentioned by the Boinc staff.....parity is a dream because of all these factors and they should at least include all Boinc projects not just the ones on an outdated list.

                                                                                                                                        I see team members crunch just Seti optimized just to keep up in Boinc totals to those who crunch Seti-only...caused by the very project they are asking to have parity to taking away from other projects.....perhaps they should eliminate optimized apps at Seti 1st before they make the call for other projects to change their credit granting.,if they really want to solve this.

                                                                                                                                        The final paragraph says they will ask the stats sites to change the credit if the projects won\'t.....coming from someone with a degree and experience dealing with people this is a very odd soloution because some stats sites may not agree to do this and in so doing credit will be different everywhere making credit more meaningless.

                                                                                                                                        You would have thought Dr.Anderson would have thought this out a little better than what I have read here.

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                                                                                                                                        Message 4424 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 16:20:40 UTC

                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 9 Jan 2008 16:22:27 UTC

                                                                                                                                          The numbers seem to come from boincstats\' chart comparing the credits of hosts that work on both projects.

                                                                                                                                          This only seems like a rudimentary guideline though, it does not account for projects performing differently depending on the processor architecture. Certain optimization may give a much bigger boost to SSE3 processors and if the credits are benchmarked on one without SSE3, the hosts that have it will receive above average credits. On the other hand if it\'s benchmarked on one with SSE3, everyone else will receive much less credit. Some projects also run better on AMDs than Intels or the other way around.

                                                                                                                                          Also fails to consider alpha/beta projects that grant more points because of complications that come up. The WUs that don\'t give any credit don\'t show up in such a comparison chart but do affect the long-term credit one receives.


                                                                                                                                          The worry that people will gravitate towards projects that give a lot of credits is - at least so far - not supported by evidence. We\'d see a vast majority of people crunching RieselSieve and some others crunching Cosmology, if that were true. Even if we assume there are different groups of interest - ie \"math\", \"space\", \"biology\" and so on - we\'d see a shift towards the projects with a lot of points within that group.

                                                                                                                                          People, however, aren\'t doing that: Cosmology gives 1.9x the credits that Einstein does, but Einstein has 18x the number of users and 48x the number of active hosts.

                                                                                                                                          RieselSieve, by that measure the far most generous project, has 2,300 active users (same as cosmology) - compared to the 200,000 active users in SETI and SETI beta. The number isn\'t a whole lot different for hosts eithers - Cosmology has 9,000 (Riesel about 21,000), SETI has over 1,700,000.


                                                                                                                                          So the data really doesn\'t support a shift towards project that give comparatively a lot of credit, hence questioning how much people care about the BOINC combined statistics. I think this really is a non-issue except to a few vocal people.

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                                                                                                                                          Message 4426 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 18:20:07 UTC

                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 9 Jan 2008 23:25:22 UTC

                                                                                                                                            I would also agree with which some have posted before me saying the Seti-standard ought to be the optimized.

                                                                                                                                            If Boinc devs are truly interested in parity the will realize that they are open source which most projects are not for many various reasons ...the most common being the licensing of the app from a 3rd party which will never be open source and hence will probably never be able to be optimized.

                                                                                                                                            This recognition by the Boinc deveopers would help level the playing field as new projects feel the pressure to keep up with Seti optimized.

                                                                                                                                            In my opinion there should be no 3rd party optimized apps....only internal...either everyone of that project participates or no-one. This type situation almost jeopardized Einsteins validaty in their peer review until they took them internal.Have 3rd party apps be submitted to the project for internal optimizations.Seti has caused the problem and needs to fix the problem before witch hunts are started.

                                                                                                                                            They opened the Pandora\'s box of credit and now wish to force a truly bad fix using questionable data.
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                                                                                                                                            Message 4429 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 18:47:42 UTC - in response to Message 4426.

                                                                                                                                              Last modified: 9 Jan 2008 18:54:54 UTC

                                                                                                                                              I would also agree with which some have posted before me saying the Seti-standard ought to be the optimized.

                                                                                                                                              If Boinc devs are truly interested in parity the will realize that they are open source which most projects are not for many various reasons ...the most common being the licensing of the app from a 3rd party which will never be open source and hence will probably never be able to be optimized.

                                                                                                                                              This recognition by the Boinc deveopers would help level the playing field as new projects feel the pressure to keep up with Seti optimized.

                                                                                                                                              They opened the Pandora\'s box of credit and now wish to force a truly bad fix using questionable data.


                                                                                                                                              SETI reduced their credits in August, when the Multibeam application came out. The credit multiplier was reduced from 3.35 to 2.85. From what I can tell with my hosts, since I was using the optimized SETI app, my overall credit ratio is about the same here as it was/is there. Sure, I may get some that are higher here, but I also get some that are higher there. All in all, maybe Cosmology is offering 1.1-1.2x...when compared against the optimized application.

                                                                                                                                              As for SETI specifically, they already cannot adequately support the current number of participants they have. They already have serious server problems every week, if not every day. They have a large amount of data that has to be gone through, so they need more participants, but in order to keep those participants happy, they need to improve their server infrastructure. They would say \"donate money or donate hardware to help\", but some of us simply can\'t. In my specific case, I\'m unemployed (layoff...and a very \"dead-end\" IT town, but I don\'t have the money to move)...

                                                                                                                                              I don\'t know where all of this is going to lead, but it could be signaling an end to the open source portion of SETI\'s science application.

                                                                                                                                              Oh, and as to \"scientific merit\", more and more I am seeing no point to doing SETI. They are not doing post-processing of the results that have been processed. They want to do post processing, with what\'s called Near-Time Persistency Checker (NTPCKR, aka \"nitpicker\"), but they currently have no hardware dedicated to it and are trying to cobble together a proof-of-concept system that will be significantly underpowered for the task. The person that heads up the hardware donations over there also is looking for something that could indeed be underpowered, but that is \"affordable\", although I question the wisdom of doing so. They seemed to be scraping for the bottom-end solution, when you should at least target the bottom of the midrange.

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                                                                                                                                              Message 4433 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 22:56:34 UTC

                                                                                                                                                There\'s a new CreditProposal that everyone can read. Needs some understanding of higher mathematics, though.
                                                                                                                                                ____________
                                                                                                                                                Jord.

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                                                                                                                                                Message 4434 - Posted 9 Jan 2008 23:19:11 UTC - in response to Message 4433.

                                                                                                                                                  There\'s a new CreditProposal that everyone can read. Needs some understanding of higher mathematics, though.



                                                                                                                                                  Using the published credit functions, it would be possible to develop a \"credit maximizer\" web site, where users can enter the parameters of their computer, and it tells them how much credit/day each project would give them.


                                                                                                                                                  I thought the point of all this was to flat out normalize credits across projects? If so, then there\'d be no point to a \"credit maximizer\" type thing like what\'s being proposed.

                                                                                                                                                  Personally, I think David Anderson should quit worrying about this. I haven\'t cut back on my SETI participation because Cosmology is offering \"more\" credits, because they aren\'t offering that much more, if any, because I am using the optimized SETI application and not the stock application. I have cut back my participation because of his tinkering with the forum/website code, the fact that there is no post-processing, the continual server problems that show that they can\'t support all the users that they have, and the \"oh well, it will pass\" attitude of Matt, who also seems to not understand that he SHOULD care about the deadlines because they are a contributing factor to his ever-increasing need for uploaded result storage space. However, he\'d rather dismiss it as \"not my area\", and while I understand that point of view, it shows that either he doesn\'t understand all the dynamics, despite claiming to be one of the \"players\" on the \"basketball team\", or he just views it as noise by complainers of having excessive pending credit, which means he doesn\'t take the time to fully read the content of the post before dismissing it...
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                                                                                                                                                  Message 4441 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 17:25:12 UTC

                                                                                                                                                    I quit running Seti sept, 2007 again because of the server problems and downtime they were having. I had started with Seti beta in 1999 got tired of all the problems after a couple of years. As Brian says, David etc. need to fix Seti FIRST then worry about what other projects are doing. (with MUCH less trouble)
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                                                                                                                                                    Message 4443 - Posted 10 Jan 2008 20:31:22 UTC - in response to Message 4441.

                                                                                                                                                      I quit running Seti sept, 2007 again because of the server problems and downtime they were having. I had started with Seti beta in 1999 got tired of all the problems after a couple of years. As Brian says, David etc. need to fix Seti FIRST then worry about what other projects are doing. (with MUCH less trouble)


                                                                                                                                                      In fairness, as you move up in the size of the project, the task of managing it becomes more difficult. The database I/O becomes much heavier, thus there is more of a need for DBA activities, such as index rebuilds, query tweaks, etc... Smaller projects have an easier task from a database management standpoint...

                                                                                                                                                      ____________

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                                                                                                                                                      Message 4444 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 1:59:14 UTC

                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 11 Jan 2008 2:00:31 UTC

                                                                                                                                                        It is curious that this shows up just as SETI also announces that they need more volunteers (too many going to other projects?).
                                                                                                                                                        PS- My numbers here match up about 1 to 1 with what I get running SETI optimized apps.

                                                                                                                                                        ____________

                                                                                                                                                        Boinc Button Abuser In Training >My Shrubbers<

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                                                                                                                                                        Message 4446 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 5:56:23 UTC - in response to Message 4444.

                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 11 Jan 2008 6:10:27 UTC

                                                                                                                                                          It is curious that this shows up just as SETI also announces that they need more volunteers (too many going to other projects?).
                                                                                                                                                          PS- My numbers here match up about 1 to 1 with what I get running SETI optimized apps.


                                                                                                                                                          I\'m thinking it depends on the architecture as to whether it\'s 1:1 or not... I think my Northwood Pentium 4 2.4B (533FSB) system is doing better here than it does with SETI, but my San Diego core AMD Athlon 64 3700+ (overclocked to 2750MHz, which also gives DDR-500, so roughly FX-57 performance), seems to be doing about the same... I\'ll try to see if I can get some comparison data on it... BOINCstats cr/sec is probably a fair thing to use for my Intel system, as it has almost 100% use of 2.2/2.2B/2.4, where my AMD system has been attached for much longer and has gone through overclocking \"upgrades\" (I used to have a 3200+ overclocked to 2500MHz @ 250x10)

                                                                                                                                                          Edit:
                                                                                                                                                          These are the figures for my Intel system:

                                                                                                                                                          Average credit per CPU second 0.008551 (Cosmology)
                                                                                                                                                          Average credit per CPU second 0.003710 (SETI)

                                                                                                                                                          So, yes, there is a large difference there...

                                                                                                                                                          My AMD shows this:

                                                                                                                                                          Average credit per CPU second 0.008813 (Cosmology)
                                                                                                                                                          Average credit per CPU second 0.006535 (SETI)

                                                                                                                                                          Much closer there, however the SETI figure has years of historical data behind it where I didn\'t use an optimized application, so I\'d guess it is actually closer than what those figures would indicate...

                                                                                                                                                          Also, there are two ways to spin that information on my Pentium 4. First, one could claim that Cosmology was granting far too many credits. The other way to look at it though is that you could say that SETI is inefficient with my specific Pentium 4 system...

                                                                                                                                                          :shrug:

                                                                                                                                                          Brian
                                                                                                                                                          ____________

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                                                                                                                                                          Message 4447 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 7:04:49 UTC - in response to Message 4446.

                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 11 Jan 2008 7:13:45 UTC


                                                                                                                                                            These are the figures for my Intel system:

                                                                                                                                                            Average credit per CPU second 0.008551 (Cosmology)
                                                                                                                                                            Average credit per CPU second 0.003710 (SETI)

                                                                                                                                                            So, yes, there is a large difference there...

                                                                                                                                                            My AMD shows this:

                                                                                                                                                            Average credit per CPU second 0.008813 (Cosmology)
                                                                                                                                                            Average credit per CPU second 0.006535 (SETI)



                                                                                                                                                            I\'ve been scratching my head on this and I have no idea why my Intel system shows that close to my AMD system based on that stat from BOINCstats... Simply glancing through task lists on both systems seems to invalidate the idea that they are that close. I want to say that it is likely that the Intel stat is significantly overstated on BOINCstats and/or I don\'t fully understand what that stat is trying to say. My AMD system can approach double the RAC over at SETI, which is supported by the stat figures. There is no way that the Pentium 4 could be that close. I should see the ~2X difference here too...

                                                                                                                                                            :scratches head:

                                                                                                                                                            Edit: A-ha! I think I know... I think it factors in the amount of credit somehow. Since there are fixed credits here, I\'d need to do more work on my AMD, I think... I use my AMD to do SETI, Cosmology, LHC, and Einstein, including some dabbling with some Linux virtual machines over at Einstein, where my Intel system is split 80/20 (now 85/15) between Cosmology and SETI.
                                                                                                                                                            Sooo, let\'s test the theory... I\'ll dedicate the AMD to Cosmology for a couple of days and see if the stat goes up...
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                                                                                                                                                            Message 4449 - Posted 11 Jan 2008 17:36:11 UTC - in response to Message 4433.

                                                                                                                                                              There\'s a new CreditProposal that everyone can read. Needs some understanding of higher mathematics, though.


                                                                                                                                                              Higher maths or maybe just half-baked maths? I mean the maths seemed a little difficult at first but then I realised it\'s just because there are gaps that need to be filled in before it can be turned into code. The gaps are of course necessary because each project will need to fill in the gaps in a way that suits their project. I doubt there is a general solution that fits all projects.

                                                                                                                                                              I am not sure who wrote the proposal but if Berkeley ever implements the proposal server side then I imagine many projects will issue the standard excuses for not adopting the new server code (as they should)...

                                                                                                                                                              1. when we get time we\'ll examine the proposal
                                                                                                                                                              2. (6 months later) we are currently reviewing the proposal
                                                                                                                                                              3. (6 months later) we are currently looking at the new server code but it isn\'t easy, we hope Berkeley will provide a credit specific API or something to make it easier to implement, we encourage anyone who can code and has spare time to help write the API
                                                                                                                                                              4. (6 months later) we have a few scripts and a new science app that might implement the new credit system and we might be ready to test them next year
                                                                                                                                                              5. (next year) we lost the work in a recent disk crash so we\'ll have to start over, sorry there was a fault in our backup script but it\'s fixed now ;)
                                                                                                                                                              6. we are happy to announce that we have concluded our investigation, this project will now shut down, thank you all for your devotion and hard work, results will be published soon, btw, we are deleting all our work on the new credit proposal because the problem the proposal seeks to rectify (crunchers are gravitating to projects that pay high credits) simply doesn\'t exist

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                                                                                                                                                              Message 4450 - Posted 12 Jan 2008 0:11:45 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                Honstly: The whole issue of cross comaprig credits is the pits and is designed to create havock in the sleeping patterns of other project managers. Ignore

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                                                                                                                                                                Message 4454 - Posted 13 Jan 2008 19:22:56 UTC - in response to Message 4447.

                                                                                                                                                                  Last modified: 13 Jan 2008 19:27:06 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                  These are the figures for my Intel system:

                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.008551 (Cosmology)
                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.003710 (SETI)

                                                                                                                                                                  So, yes, there is a large difference there...

                                                                                                                                                                  My AMD shows this:

                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.008813 (Cosmology)
                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.006535 (SETI)



                                                                                                                                                                  I\'ve been scratching my head on this and I have no idea why my Intel system shows that close to my AMD system based on that stat from BOINCstats... Simply glancing through task lists on both systems seems to invalidate the idea that they are that close. I want to say that it is likely that the Intel stat is significantly overstated on BOINCstats and/or I don\'t fully understand what that stat is trying to say. My AMD system can approach double the RAC over at SETI, which is supported by the stat figures. There is no way that the Pentium 4 could be that close. I should see the ~2X difference here too...

                                                                                                                                                                  :scratches head:

                                                                                                                                                                  Edit: A-ha! I think I know... I think it factors in the amount of credit somehow. Since there are fixed credits here, I\'d need to do more work on my AMD, I think...
                                                                                                                                                                  <snip>
                                                                                                                                                                  I\'ll dedicate the AMD to Cosmology for a couple of days and see if the stat goes up...


                                                                                                                                                                  My theory, or at least some aspect of it, has indeed proved correct. My credit per cpu second for my AMD system here at Cosmology has increased, while the same stat for my Intel has remained roughly the same...

                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.011226 (AMD)
                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.008523 (Intel)

                                                                                                                                                                  Now, as to the wide spread on SETI vs. Cosmology on my AMD... Several factors at play there... First, the system was originally a 3200+ with 1GB of memory instead of a 3700+ with 2GB memory. The 3200+ processor only had 512k of cache, while the 3700+ has 1MB of cache. SETI has shown to be responsive to a cache increase, but with the biggest \"bang for the buck\" going from 512k to 1MB... Additionally, my overclock on the 3200+ was only up to 2500MHz, where as now I have the 3700+ at 2750MHz... I\'m pretty sure that I also ran an unoptimized application for a while over there, so the data has in it some results that took longer... Also, as noted here, running results seems to influence that particular statistic, and since I\'ve run a few SETI results since posting the earlier message, here\'s the current stat for the AMD at SETI:

                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.006535 (original post)
                                                                                                                                                                  Average credit per CPU second 0.007342 (now)

                                                                                                                                                                  Thinking about this, I didn\'t run all that many results over at SETI over the past few days. I think I should probably get in touch with Willy (the guy that runs BOINCstats) and ask exactly what the calculation is for that stat and how much history is involved in the calculation...
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                                                                                                                                                                  Message 4471 - Posted 16 Jan 2008 2:33:06 UTC - in response to Message 4454.

                                                                                                                                                                    Last modified: 16 Jan 2008 2:33:41 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                    Thinking about this, I didn\'t run all that many results over at SETI over the past few days. I think I should probably get in touch with Willy (the guy that runs BOINCstats) and ask exactly what the calculation is for that stat and how much history is involved in the calculation...


                                                                                                                                                                    Answering my own question:

                                                                                                                                                                    The credit per cpu second is calculated by each project and is part of the xml stats dump...

                                                                                                                                                                    That said, here\'s something to think about:

                                                                                                                                                                    Pending credit is going to influence that figure. What needs to be known now is if any of the pending credit goes into the calculation or if it is only granted credit. Since pending credits tend to linger around far longer at SETI than they do here, the stat could be unfairly penalizing projects with fast turnaround times...
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                                                                                                                                                                    Message 4473 - Posted 16 Jan 2008 9:11:16 UTC - in response to Message 4471.


                                                                                                                                                                      Thinking about this, I didn\'t run all that many results over at SETI over the past few days. I think I should probably get in touch with Willy (the guy that runs BOINCstats) and ask exactly what the calculation is for that stat and how much history is involved in the calculation...


                                                                                                                                                                      Answering my own question:

                                                                                                                                                                      The credit per cpu second is calculated by each project and is part of the xml stats dump...

                                                                                                                                                                      That said, here\'s something to think about:

                                                                                                                                                                      Pending credit is going to influence that figure. What needs to be known now is if any of the pending credit goes into the calculation or if it is only granted credit. Since pending credits tend to linger around far longer at SETI than they do here, the stat could be unfairly penalizing projects with fast turnaround times...


                                                                                                                                                                      I don\'t think that the amount off pending credit is that important.

                                                                                                                                                                      The question is how is the credit per cpu second made.
                                                                                                                                                                      Is it based on all credit granted and all seconds used for all hosts or is the caculation based on credit and seconds in a limited period of time.

                                                                                                                                                                      If the first is the case then a \"old\" project (like SETI) will always show a lower result because when it started computers where a lot slower then today and therefor would have needed a lot more time to process work then is needed today for a equal amount of work.

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                                                                                                                                                                      Message 4474 - Posted 16 Jan 2008 16:22:47 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                        This comes from the Riesel-Sieve homepage news for those who may be interested in participating :

                                                                                                                                                                        2008-01-16 00:54:09 UTC BOINC Credit Discussion
                                                                                                                                                                        Over the last few days, there has been quite a number of discussions regarding the current BOINC credit model, as well as several proposals for new models to follow. While some of the discussion has taken place on the boinc_projects list, many of these discussions have occurred on IRC, multiple project/team/BOINC forums, or personal email. In the interest of time, clarity, and the ability to hear many views in a single arena, the staff of Riesel Sieve and I would like to extend an invitation to a BOINC Credit Community Discussion on Monday, January 21st. This discussion will be held via irc on irc.freenode.net, in the channel #boinc-credit.

                                                                                                                                                                        In the interest of having the discussion at a time conducive to all, we will be hosting two discussions, at 2pm US Eastern Time and 8pm US Eastern Time. Please consider attending either or both. The logs from each will also be posted on the Riesel Sieve website shortly afterward, to allow those who could not attend the opportunity to review the transcript.

                                                                                                                                                                        The only way that we can come to a true solution to the crediting situation is through a thorough discussion (or series of discussions) in a real-time format, not over email. Anyone from the BOINC community, including individual users, is invited to attend. Please consider redistributing through your own team channels to encourage attendance.

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                                                                                                                                                                        Message 4501 - Posted 18 Jan 2008 16:20:26 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Guys, very interesting thread. I\'ve just attached to C@H. Until recently, I had all my rigs crunching S@H & admittedly, enjoyed the rise of my rac. I did not join s@h for the rac but the science.

                                                                                                                                                                          At this moment in time, I cannot access s@h. It\'s not a problem my end as I can access the other 5 projects I\'m attached to. I have found DC to be rewarding in that it helps science to solve problems which benefits us all.

                                                                                                                                                                          The point I\'ve just found annoying is that Dr A wants to interfere with other projects when the original project cannot get its act together. Since re-attaching to Seti since my original date of 1999, I have found that it is no longer rewarding but frustrating. So much to the point that when my personal rigs have finished crunching the s@h wu\'s, they will be detached. My customers rigs will still be attached as they are more or less \"set & forget\" (on their annual servicing, will update boinc if necessary).

                                                                                                                                                                          As already mentioned, seti wants more volunteers? Why?, they cannot maintain the project for the current volunteers!

                                                                                                                                                                          As regards to credit, IMHO it is nice to see how one\'s rigs are doing, but to concentrate on the credit alone is not what these projects are here for.


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                                                                                                                                                                          Message 4505 - Posted 18 Jan 2008 20:12:36 UTC - in response to Message 4501.


                                                                                                                                                                            At this moment in time, I cannot access s@h. It\'s not a problem my end as I can access the other 5 projects I\'m attached to.


                                                                                                                                                                            Hard to tell for me. I\'m definitely having local connection problems as I\'m seeing the cable modem lose sync... However, when I have a connection, I\'m not experiencing problems getting to the boards and a scheduler request just now came back in 10 seconds... Dunno...


                                                                                                                                                                            The point I\'ve just found annoying is that Dr A wants to interfere with other projects when the original project cannot get its act together.


                                                                                                                                                                            I think it has been obvious that I\'m skeptical of the motives behind his tinkering, but if he wants to tinker, then it needs to be completely fair and equitable. What I brought up about the non-FLOPs supporting BOINC clients dropping SETI\'s average credit is true. People speculate that it is only 0.2% drop or whatever, however the \"luck of the draw\" could make those individuals not get as many as other people. I think it needs to be studied at a project-wide level before dismissing it as statistically insignificant...

                                                                                                                                                                            As already mentioned, seti wants more volunteers? Why?, they cannot maintain the project for the current volunteers!


                                                                                                                                                                            I don\'t know either, and not all of us can afford to donate anything other than our computer resources, as we do not have money. I used to have money, but I was slapped with a layoff and unable to find a job in the same field / pay range for the past year. All I can say is I\'m glad people (other volunteers, not the project staff) haven\'t started telling me that I don\'t have a green star (donation), so I shouldn\'t be complaining about things... That\'s happened before over there...
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                                                                                                                                                                            Message 4507 - Posted 18 Jan 2008 23:10:13 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                              Although the way this thread is going is by no means offensive or overheated, I kindly ask you to stick to the original subject as lined out by Scott in the first post. It is not much use speculating over the motives of people from outside this project.
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                                                                                                                                                                              Message 4509 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 1:05:54 UTC - in response to Message 4507.

                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 19 Jan 2008 1:09:33 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                Although the way this thread is going is by no means offensive or overheated, I kindly ask you to stick to the original subject as lined out by Scott in the first post. It is not much use speculating over the motives of people from outside this project.


                                                                                                                                                                                While I understand your perspective, David Anderson and SETI are indeed driving this discussion, whether you realize it or not. Their credit is now being floated as the \"de facto standard\" and Cosmology\'s credit is \"supposed to be\" (according to David Anderson) calibrated to be granting +/- 20% from their \"baseline\".

                                                                                                                                                                                One large problem with all of this is that the baseline is likely lower than what it would be if the SETI project itself took control of a long-standing \"issue\" with BOINC, which is the alleged NTLM-proxy issue. Supposedly there is an issue with libcurl that manifested itself in versions of BOINC post-4.72 that \"cause\" some sort of issue where people using NTLM proxies cannot communicate with the projects. As such, even though SETI\'s credit calculation in the science application is designed with flop counting, the BOINC Core Client can\'t report it back until you get up to version 5.2.6 (Windows, at least). SETI is refusing to \"cut people off\", and so they do not have a required minimum version that would make sure that everyone was doing flops instead of benchmark*time.

                                                                                                                                                                                Additionally, in respect to the minimum version, supposedly BOINC 4.19 was the \"minimum version\" that SETI supposedly enforced, but that too has been broken for quite some time as there are BOINC 3.x versions here and there that are still able to connect and get work. The problem with having the BOINC 3.x versions submit work is even more detrimental to credit, as they claim ZERO (0) credits. Since SETI\'s credit will grant the lower of the two claims, your only prayer of not getting a big goosegg (0) if you get paired with a 3.x BOINC client is that your result is not strongly similar and it has to be issued to a 3rd computer, thus the low score gets dropped.

                                                                                                                                                                                Various individual volunteers over there will postulate that these issues happen infrequently enough so as to be effectively statistically insignificant.

                                                                                                                                                                                I question that...

                                                                                                                                                                                Furthermore, if the flop-counting is the \"standard\" method for calculating credits, that \"standard\" means that my claims there are \"standard\" there, as I use BOINC 5.8.16, and if I get paired with a non-flop compliant BOINC version, I generally get 50% or less of the \"standard\" claim, then internally in their own project they are guilty of violating their own supposed \"standard\", as -50% is outside of the normalization range of -20% to +20%...

                                                                                                                                                                                Their own house needs to be in order before preaching to other projects...

                                                                                                                                                                                Beyond that, there\'s the discussion of what should be the \"standard\" there, the official application compiled by official project staff, or the optimized application compiled by volunteers (SETI is open source). The optimized application already has 20% or so boost over the vanilla application in many cases... So, does that mean that the \"standard\" becomes only the official application and thus any and all open source efforts must be forced to just not improve the application any further than 20% above the stock application?



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                                                                                                                                                                                Message 4510 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 1:11:26 UTC - in response to Message 4509.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Although the way this thread is going is by no means offensive or overheated, I kindly ask you to stick to the original subject as lined out by Scott in the first post. It is not much use speculating over the motives of people from outside this project.


                                                                                                                                                                                  While I understand your perspective, David Anderson and SETI are indeed driving this discussion, whether you realize it or not. Their credit is now being floated as the \"de facto standard\" and Cosmology\'s credit is \"supposed to be\" (according to David Anderson) calibrated to be granting +/- 20% from their \"baseline\".


                                                                                                                                                                                  I agree with that, and also with adding these elements to the discussion. However, it is not on topic in this thread to comment on the way other projects are run or should be run. So I kindly ask for the second time to refrain from doing that.

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                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 4511 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 3:21:45 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                    Last modified: 19 Jan 2008 3:21:57 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                    David Anderson is not from SETI@home - he is the BOINC-father. There is a difference. SETI is simply another BOINC project.

                                                                                                                                                                                    David Anderson is driving this current discussion of BOINC-wide credit granting. He has specifically targeted Cosmology@Home as being out of compliance with what he feels is correct levels of credit granting.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It will be impossible to continue this discussion if it is not allowed to discuss credit BOINC-wide. Either Cosmology@home is part of the BOINC community, or it is not.
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                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 4512 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 3:34:57 UTC - in response to Message 4511.

                                                                                                                                                                                      David Anderson is not from SETI@home - he is the BOINC-father. There is a difference. SETI is simply another BOINC project.

                                                                                                                                                                                      David Anderson is driving this current discussion of BOINC-wide credit granting. He has specifically targeted Cosmology@Home as being out of compliance with what he feels is correct levels of credit granting.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It will be impossible to continue this discussion if it is not allowed to discuss credit BOINC-wide. Either Cosmology@home is part of the BOINC community, or it is not.



                                                                                                                                                                                      Having a full blown discussion of Seti here is not going to help determine anything about C@H credit.The real purpose of this thread. These need to be taken to the Seti boards.

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                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 4513 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 3:39:37 UTC - in response to Message 4512.

                                                                                                                                                                                        David Anderson is not from SETI@home - he is the BOINC-father. There is a difference. SETI is simply another BOINC project.

                                                                                                                                                                                        David Anderson is driving this current discussion of BOINC-wide credit granting. He has specifically targeted Cosmology@Home as being out of compliance with what he feels is correct levels of credit granting.

                                                                                                                                                                                        It will be impossible to continue this discussion if it is not allowed to discuss credit BOINC-wide. Either Cosmology@home is part of the BOINC community, or it is not.



                                                                                                                                                                                        Having a full blown discussion of Seti here is not going to help determine anything about C@H credit.The real purpose of this thread. These need to be taken to the Seti boards.


                                                                                                                                                                                        Perhaps not full-blown, but some information regarding credit claiming and granting over there is now relevant because its\' model is (supposedly) now this project\'s new target to achieve, within 20%...
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                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 4514 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 5:26:12 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 19 Jan 2008 20:29:34 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                          I think the current state of the discussion is mostly fine, since we are being asked to change our credit to be more in line with other projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                          As long as the discussion stays strictly about credits and not about, say, how well other projects are being run, then this is fine.
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                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 4515 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 5:44:24 UTC - in response to Message 4514.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I think the current state of the discussion is fine, since we are being asked to change our credit to be more in line with other projects.


                                                                                                                                                                                            At what level do you feel this project is at? Do you feel it is still \"beta\"? Would you go for \"advanced beta\"? Personally, other than the issue with the progress indicator going buh-bye and starting over, I haven\'t had an issue here on either of my systems... However, that\'s not to say that there aren\'t problems out there. One of the \"rewards\" to entice people to test should be, IMO, a somewhat higher amount of credit because of the potential for getting no credit, like what happened over in the \"unfair outcome\" thread...

                                                                                                                                                                                            Personally, I think David Anderson is overreacting to 4 projects: yours, QMC, RieselSieve, and yoyo. In my opinion, he was/is more concerned about \"too many\" credits being issued than \"too few\".
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                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 4520 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 14:14:29 UTC - in response to Message 4511.

                                                                                                                                                                                              David Anderson is not from SETI@home - he is the BOINC-father.

                                                                                                                                                                                              As Seti director, he is both. See Seti Project Personnel, first person in the list.

                                                                                                                                                                                              For the rest of the discussion, I\'m staying out of it.
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                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 4521 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 19:02:35 UTC - in response to Message 4514.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 19 Jan 2008 19:03:40 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                I think the current state of the discussion is fine, since we are being asked to change our credit to be more in line with other projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                As long as this says civil, I don\'t see a problem with continuing.


                                                                                                                                                                                                1st, many thanks Scott. 2nd, My apologies, I did not intend to cause the thread to go off topic. I genuinely admire & appreciate the way Admin & Moderators work these boards. It really is a sheer pleasure to witness.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I\'ve stopped crunching Seti on my personal rigs due to the problems at S@H. Too many times I\'ve seen the servers down, questions unanswered. At the end of the day, any DC Project cannot survive without it\'s volunteers. The majority of which enjoy doing so, not only for the science, credits, but also for what they themselves can learn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                You are rewarding your volunteers with what you consider to be a reasonable amount. I believe most accept this, but what I find hard to accept is that yours & other projects must fall into line with S@H. This is wrong, for scientists & so called professionals, they are going about things the wrong way. Since re-joining S@H for the first time since Summer 1999, asides from the regular server maintainence outage, they continue to lose they servers on a regular basis.

                                                                                                                                                                                                My personal view is that until they get their act together, they should not be setting standards for others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                At this moment in time, I think that they are in the \"Chicken & Egg\" situation. Which comes 1st, the project or the crunchers?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 4522 - Posted 19 Jan 2008 20:31:15 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I edited my above post, but to reiterate, you can discuss credits in other projects and how they relate to our own, but please stay away from talking about how poorly/well other projects are run and such.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 4527 - Posted 20 Jan 2008 11:21:23 UTC - in response to Message 4522.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I edited my above post, but to reiterate, you can discuss credits in other projects and how they relate to our own, but please stay away from talking about how poorly/well other projects are run and such.


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 4530 - Posted 20 Jan 2008 15:27:13 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                      DA is comparing credits \"per CPU second\" here against a standard (S@H).

                                                                                                                                                                                                      We know that credits here are a bit high, to offset for failed results, with the idea that everything will average out. Thus freeing up Scott from having to manually fix credits of those failed credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Question: Does that master comparison table include the failed results with zero credits? Or is it counting only the successful results with credits? If the latter, then it is overstating the actual credits, because it is not taking into account the wasted crunching time that occasionally happens.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 4532 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 0:09:57 UTC - in response to Message 4530.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        DA is comparing credits \"per CPU second\" here against a standard (S@H).

                                                                                                                                                                                                        We know that credits here are a bit high, to offset for failed results, with the idea that everything will average out. Thus freeing up Scott from having to manually fix credits of those failed credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Question: Does that master comparison table include the failed results with zero credits? Or is it counting only the successful results with credits? If the latter, then it is overstating the actual credits, because it is not taking into account the wasted crunching time that occasionally happens.


                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good question, however that would be the case for all projects, so I would think it would balance out depending on the level of alpha/beta and/or error rates in general. This is why I asked Scott what his opinion was on what level he felt this project was at...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 4533 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 0:12:50 UTC - in response to Message 4532.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          DA is comparing credits \"per CPU second\" here against a standard (S@H).

                                                                                                                                                                                                          We know that credits here are a bit high, to offset for failed results, with the idea that everything will average out. Thus freeing up Scott from having to manually fix credits of those failed credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Question: Does that master comparison table include the failed results with zero credits? Or is it counting only the successful results with credits? If the latter, then it is overstating the actual credits, because it is not taking into account the wasted crunching time that occasionally happens.


                                                                                                                                                                                                          Good question, however that would be the case for all projects, so I would think it would balance out depending on the level of alpha/beta and/or error rates in general. This is why I asked Scott what his opinion was on what level he felt this project was at...


                                                                                                                                                                                                          You can tell by the various issues that crop up and the lack of a mac app where we are at...as the sign says BETA (middle)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 4534 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 1:17:46 UTC - in response to Message 4533.


                                                                                                                                                                                                            You can tell by the various issues that crop up and the lack of a mac app where we are at...as the sign says BETA (middle)


                                                                                                                                                                                                            Then to follow up on what Zombie asked, do failed tasks get included in the exported stat? I would tend to think that it doesn\'t. If it doesn\'t, then what is the current failed task rate project-wide?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 4535 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 1:31:06 UTC - in response to Message 4534.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last modified: 21 Jan 2008 1:50:41 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                              You can tell by the various issues that crop up and the lack of a mac app where we are at...as the sign says BETA (middle)


                                                                                                                                                                                                              Then to follow up on what Zombie asked, do failed tasks get included in the exported stat? I would tend to think that it doesn\'t. If it doesn\'t, then what is the current failed task rate project-wide?


                                                                                                                                                                                                              As far as I know it does not on any project and I don\'t have that info but I suspect is less than 2%.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 4536 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 2:58:16 UTC - in response to Message 4535.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                You can tell by the various issues that crop up and the lack of a mac app where we are at...as the sign says BETA (middle)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                Then to follow up on what Zombie asked, do failed tasks get included in the exported stat? I would tend to think that it doesn\'t. If it doesn\'t, then what is the current failed task rate project-wide?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                As far as I know it does not on any project and I don\'t have that info but I suspect is less than 2%.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                That is an important stat to know though. In my opinion, the failure rate in combination with the initial design sensitivity / project goals should be the primary determination for whether a project is at alpha, beta, or production. Not having an app for a platform is a bit lower on the justification scale, IMO. I would suppose it would depend on if that app was in testing or not, at least to me. If one were to not even be attempting to come up with a Mac app, you could have a stable project otherwise, but still call yourselves \"beta\" because of it. I think alpha/beta projects should reward more than the baseline due to the generosity of the participants in realizing that they may encounter problems and are still willing to try. However, you can\'t run a perpetual \"beta\"...IMO.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 4537 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 4:40:13 UTC - in response to Message 4534.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can tell by the various issues that crop up and the lack of a mac app where we are at...as the sign says BETA (middle)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then to follow up on what Zombie asked, do failed tasks get included in the exported stat? I would tend to think that it doesn\'t. If it doesn\'t, then what is the current failed task rate project-wide?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Remember it is the credits \"per CPU second\" that DA is counting. So it\'s not the failure *rate* that maters, but instead the number of CPU seconds that get crunched, but not counted because the WU fails, or fails to validate. For some projects/apps/WUs, the WUs fail (if they fail) in the first second. For others, it may go 23 hours before failing, or even complete but not validate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I believe the stat sites count only validated points, and therefore miss all the un-validated seconds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And I believe that is unfair to projects with higher failure rates.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 4538 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 4:59:49 UTC - in response to Message 4537.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Last modified: 21 Jan 2008 5:03:41 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Remember it is the credits \"per CPU second\" that DA is counting. So it\'s not the failure *rate* that maters, but instead the number of CPU seconds that get crunched, but not counted because the WU fails, or fails to validate.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, I realized that my wording was not good enough, but I didn\'t feel motivated enough to go back to correct it. Still, I don\'t think it would get included, as I think it only includes something into the averaging if it is granted credit. Also, it\'s not the \"stat sites\" that might \"miss\" this information. They only rely on the exported stat from the projects. It would be a project thing to get those tasks weighted properly and used to calibrate the cps value, because as you pointed out, 0 for 2 seconds and 0 for 8000 seconds are both \"0\" in the credit column, but the 8000 seconds is obviously more effort and should impact the cps value more than the 2 second effort.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Along similar lines, LHC actually awards \"half-credit\", so standardization would need to be established in this area too...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                    And I believe that is unfair to projects with higher failure rates.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, that\'s why it is important to know what the failure rate is across the board here.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 4540 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 8:26:40 UTC - in response to Message 4454.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My credit per cpu second for my AMD system here at Cosmology has increased, while the same stat for my Intel has remained roughly the same...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Average credit per CPU second 0.011226 (AMD)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Average credit per CPU second 0.008523 (Intel)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Revisiting this, I have since increased my Intel hosts\' participation up to 90% Cosmology and only 10% SETI. Guess what\'s happened???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Average credit per CPU second 0.004776 (Cosmology)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Average credit per CPU second 0.003616 (SETI)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Looks like a stream of longer-running tasks came through for my Intel system, thus the spread in cps is now down to only 32.1% (or 1.321) instead of over 2X like it was earlier...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      So, let\'s ask again: Is this the natural runtime variation that has been in effect since December, or was there any change over the past few days in reaction to this discussion?


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 4542 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 17:56:41 UTC - in response to Message 4540.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So, let\'s ask again: Is this the natural runtime variation that has been in effect since December, or was there any change over the past few days in reaction to this discussion?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is the natural run-time variation. It\'s interesting to see that your tests seem to confirm a high level of credit for C@H.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 4543 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 18:27:24 UTC - in response to Message 4542.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 21 Jan 2008 18:31:03 UTC



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So, let\'s ask again: Is this the natural runtime variation that has been in effect since December, or was there any change over the past few days in reaction to this discussion?



                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is the natural run-time variation. It\'s interesting to see that your tests seem to confirm a high level of credit for C@H.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Ben


                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes it does, but that was already a given when looking at the statistics sites. That said, the level of \"betaness\" (perhaps not a word there, but oh well) is important. If you and Scott feel that the project is still \"beta\", and can quantify and qualify that with David Anderson, then I think some leeway should be alloted to you. If, however, the project is closer to being \"production\" instead of \"beta\", then I can see where David has a point, although I don\'t really think that all that many BOINC participants are behaving the way he appears to think that they are. For example, look at the high numbers of people working on WCG and Rosetta. The high participation in those projects would tend to refute the notion that there are strong indications that projects with lower credits have difficulty attracting participants.


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 4544 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 20:25:26 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 21 Jan 2008 20:28:41 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Actually, I was a little surprised that the average runtime for the WU\'s has not changed too much over the last several months (sample of 12,573 WU\'s):


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 4547 - Posted 21 Jan 2008 22:03:05 UTC - in response to Message 4544.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Actually, I was a little surprised that the average runtime for the WU\'s has not changed too much over the last several months (sample of 12,573 WU\'s):


                                                                                                                                                                                                                              AHA! GREAT GRAPH. This clearly demonstrates the phenomenon I am seeing with the drastic change in my Pentium 4\'s credit per second... Apparently I was real lucky for some time as the Pentium 4 was doing extraordinarily well. Now it seems I\'m getting the slower tasks coming in...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, expanding on that theory, SETIs host distribution both in number of hosts and in the work done by hosts is heavily weighted with Pentium 4 processors in the top 25 as viewed at BOINCstats. This project has a higher concentration of Core/Core 2...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not sure where to go with that for a theorum, but your graph at least does show the volitility of runtimes with Pentium 4...





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                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 4555 - Posted 22 Jan 2008 16:02:23 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I wonder if the great variation in run time for the P4 is due to HT. Since the FPU must be shared between the two threads, the performance of the cosmo task could vary greatly depending on what kind of task is running on the other thread.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 4556 - Posted 22 Jan 2008 16:08:20 UTC - in response to Message 4555.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wonder if the great variation in run time for the P4 is due to HT.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That\'s a good thought, but my 2.4 is a Northwood, which only had HT once you got to the 3.06, and only then with BIOS support...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 4557 - Posted 22 Jan 2008 17:53:08 UTC - in response to Message 4556.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wonder if the great variation in run time for the P4 is due to HT.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That\'s a good thought, but my 2.4 is a Northwood, which only had HT once you got to the 3.06, and only then with BIOS support...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ah, showing my ignorance here, or more so just not clarifying enough. My 2.4 is a Northwood \"B\" core (533FSB) and not the \"C\" (800FSB) variety. The B cores did not get HT until the 3.06GHz model...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So ends my clarification :-)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 4559 - Posted 22 Jan 2008 19:33:48 UTC - in response to Message 4555.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I wonder if the great variation in run time for the P4 is due to HT. Since the FPU must be shared between the two threads, the performance of the cosmo task could vary greatly depending on what kind of task is running on the other thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That is with Cosmo running on both threads. Both of my P4\'s show the same trend. It looks like some of the WU\'s do some calcs that the P4 doesn\'t like (P4 D is fine).

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 4560 - Posted 22 Jan 2008 22:11:17 UTC - in response to Message 4559.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wonder if the great variation in run time for the P4 is due to HT. Since the FPU must be shared between the two threads, the performance of the cosmo task could vary greatly depending on what kind of task is running on the other thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That is with Cosmo running on both threads. Both of my P4\'s show the same trend. It looks like some of the WU\'s do some calcs that the P4 doesn\'t like (P4 D is fine).


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Got any stats on cache hit / miss rates?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 4561 - Posted 23 Jan 2008 2:15:20 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just joined C@H yesterday. I have been with seti since 2003 and Einstein since last year.When I started seti I had no concept,or notion,of credits. It was just something I believed in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last year I heard about Einstein and joined that as well,by this time a member of a team.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As a 60 year-old trucker[HGV 1] {18 wheeler on your side of the pond} I have seen the imensity of the night sky, and the beauty of it, and this project is worthy of support.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have an AMD Athlon x2 4200 and seti runs between 1.5 hours and 6 hrs., Einstein between 15 hrs and 18 hrs., and Cosmo.,so far,between 4 hrs. and 6 hrs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don\'t care about credits. I care about science.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 4751 - Posted 25 Jan 2008 8:15:40 UTC - in response to Message 4561.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just joined C@H yesterday. I have been with seti since 2003 and Einstein since last year.When I started seti I had no concept,or notion,of credits. It was just something I believed in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last year I heard about Einstein and joined that as well,by this time a member of a team.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As a 60 year-old trucker[HGV 1] {18 wheeler on your side of the pond} I have seen the imensity of the night sky, and the beauty of it, and this project is worthy of support.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have an AMD Athlon x2 4200 and seti runs between 1.5 hours and 6 hrs., Einstein between 15 hrs and 18 hrs., and Cosmo.,so far,between 4 hrs. and 6 hrs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don\'t care about credits. I care about science.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Couldn\'t agree more. It\'s about helping advance our knowledge of our universe and not about how many credits are scored. I donate my computer time not for kudos but for my own personal satisfaction in knowing that in a small way I am contributing what I can to the advancement of science.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 4759 - Posted 25 Jan 2008 16:23:00 UTC - in response to Message 4751.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just joined C@H yesterday. I have been with seti since 2003 and Einstein since last year.When I started seti I had no concept,or notion,of credits. It was just something I believed in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last year I heard about Einstein and joined that as well,by this time a member of a team.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As a 60 year-old trucker[HGV 1] {18 wheeler on your side of the pond} I have seen the imensity of the night sky, and the beauty of it, and this project is worthy of support.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have an AMD Athlon x2 4200 and seti runs between 1.5 hours and 6 hrs., Einstein between 15 hrs and 18 hrs., and Cosmo.,so far,between 4 hrs. and 6 hrs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don\'t care about credits. I care about science.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Couldn\'t agree more. It\'s about helping advance our knowledge of our universe and not about how many credits are scored. I donate my computer time not for kudos but for my own personal satisfaction in knowing that in a small way I am contributing what I can to the advancement of science.



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I second Your statements. Credits are secondary, the main goal is the science behind the projects and the fun we have with our little hobby !

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 4857 - Posted 27 Jan 2008 19:28:56 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I whole heartedly agree with the science. I wounldn\'t be here if I wasn\'t. I understand Mr. Anderson\'s concerns reguarding credits. However I do believe we will discover a model for our universe long before ever finding little green men. That is my choice. Harsh as that may sound, getting credit for the work I do is nice. As far as the calculated credit. Seti w/u\'s don\'t have multiple results per w/u. Cosmology does. My calculations are alot closer (1 to 1) than his third party stats fact finding mission. I\'d like to see more proof to back his proposterous claim. Rather than a \"oh by the way\". Secondly the box I\'m currently using can \'choke\' down a cosmology, simap, yoyo, w/u easier. It was the way I built it, and tuned. Getting credits here, or the other wonderful projects I participate, makes me feel better about the 40-60 dollars per box, I spend every month to keep my hobby flurishing 24/7. Perhaps it is SETI that doesn\'t grant enough credit, that is what I believe. Mr. Anderson, don\'t step on the feet of the people you depend on. We are the all singing, all dancing, crunchers of the world.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 4867 - Posted 28 Jan 2008 17:03:10 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I read over on the BS shout box that Cosmo, RS and QMC are all lowering credits. As far as I can tell, only QMC has made any sort of official statement confirming this. Is this true for Cosmo? If so, how exactly will the credits be changing?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 4888 - Posted 31 Jan 2008 3:45:03 UTC - in response to Message 4555.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wonder if the great variation in run time for the P4 is due to HT. Since the FPU must be shared between the two threads, the performance of the cosmo task could vary greatly depending on what kind of task is running on the other thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I know the feeling. On an H/T you\'ll have quicker runs if two different projects are crunching. When you have the same project crunching on both threads they compete for the same resources at the same time.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 4897 - Posted 1 Feb 2008 5:14:50 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      HI All.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Credit is important to me. It is how I keep a record of my contribution to science. My receipt for the donation, if you like. Now if I could just convince the tax man.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I would love to see consistency in credit calculation across projects. For now that is an \'impossible dream\' and one of the main reasons for this is the inability of the current and proposed schemes to quantify the effects of L2 cache overflow and memory demands. Both of these have a profound effect on credit/hour and neither are taken into account with benchmarking.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      On an H/T you\'ll have quicker runs if two different projects are crunching. When you have the same project crunching on both threads they compete for the same resources at the same time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This also applies to dual core and quad core, with shared L2 cache. I\'ve been studying the effect for a while now and although it is impossible to tell how much this effects \'Cosmology\' work, it can be quantified in some other projects. On SIMAP for example there is little or no effect. On projects like QMC, two Work Units the same can take as much as 210% of \'normal runtime\'.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Different projects can also clash with each other. Again it\'s difficult to tell with C@H, but early indications are that there may be a connection between sharing with QMC, for example, and the progress resetting problems and dll. initialization error which some are experiencing here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Cheers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Love is the absence of Fear...........Fear is the absence of Love

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 4905 - Posted 3 Feb 2008 17:33:19 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It\'s sad that just a few people who just can\'t give without receiving something back are driving this never ending debate about nothing. The vast majority of crunchers just don\'t give a damn about credits so just drop the credit system completely and lets get on with the research.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ganiscol
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 4906 - Posted 3 Feb 2008 18:39:42 UTC - in response to Message 4905.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It\'s sad that just a few people who just can\'t give without receiving something back are driving this never ending debate about nothing. The vast majority of crunchers just don\'t give a damn about credits so just drop the credit system completely and lets get on with the research.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thats a bold claim. I think you\'d be surprised how many people with high output would bail if that happened. The \"majority\" doesnt necessarily outweight the group of people who like the competitive nature of BOINC and consider it as (if not the) driving factor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why destroy something that makes both sides happy? The only victim would be science. Fine tuning the system makes more sense than radically change it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 4909 - Posted 3 Feb 2008 20:10:31 UTC - in response to Message 4905.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 3 Feb 2008 20:11:15 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It\'s sad that just a few people who just can\'t give without receiving something back are driving this never ending debate about nothing. The vast majority of crunchers just don\'t give a damn about credits so just drop the credit system completely and lets get on with the research.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Actually, the primary people driving the issue are hard-core \"things must be equal\" types. Sure, that\'s a nice goal, but simply mandating it doesn\'t make it actually \"equal\". For example, look at what just recently happened here, with some people not getting any credit at all for work performed that just happened to get squashed by the server changes. Also, what about the fact that the SETI \"standard\" doesn\'t take into account that you can exceed the \"standard\" by using the optimized clients? How about trying to compare a project like ABC against SETI while using a K6-2? Since ABC is more integer math than floating point, the integer unit in the K6 will handle ABC better than what the floating point will do for SETI, seeing how the FPU in the K6 was very poor...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 4915 - Posted 4 Feb 2008 3:32:57 UTC - in response to Message 4906.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It\'s sad that just a few people who just can\'t give without receiving something back are driving this never ending debate about nothing. The vast majority of crunchers just don\'t give a damn about credits so just drop the credit system completely and lets get on with the research.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thats a bold claim. I think you\'d be surprised how many people with high output would bail if that happened. The \"majority\" doesnt necessarily outweight the group of people who like the competitive nature of BOINC and consider it as (if not the) driving factor.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think you would be surprised at how few would bail. The notion that credits drives the whole thing is false doctrine. If it were true then the projects offering high pay would be seeing huge gains in donated CPU cycles. But they\'re not. That tells me the vast majority crunch for some reason other than credits. For the few who can\'t do it without credit, kiss them goodbye and abolish the credits for the credits are total bulls**t. They have been cheated and miscalculated by so many and for so long that they have absolutely no meaning and relevance anymore. They\'re a sad joke at best and they\'ll never be anything more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why destroy something that makes both sides happy? The only victim would be science. Fine tuning the system makes more sense than radically change it.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I believe the science is suffering already. And it ain\'t making me happy knowing devs are wasting time on this issue, time that would be better invested in improving other aspects of BOINC, and I bet a lot of other crunchers feel the same way. They can fine tune, radically change or anything in between for another 20 years and it won\'t make any difference. 20 years from now you\'ll be reading the same whines and complaints, nothing will change, because the dream of fair and equitable credits is hopeless. In 20 years you\'ll see. Fortunately, DA already sees that and that\'s why he\'s abandoned the benchmark scheme and is now putting the onus on projects. He\'s washed his hands of it all and is threatening to ask the stats sites to adjust the credits from \"bad\" projects. If the stats sites are ever foolish enough to open that can o\' worms it will explode in their face.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 4916 - Posted 4 Feb 2008 3:46:31 UTC - in response to Message 4909.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 4 Feb 2008 3:48:08 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It\'s sad that just a few people who just can\'t give without receiving something back are driving this never ending debate about nothing. The vast majority of crunchers just don\'t give a damn about credits so just drop the credit system completely and lets get on with the research.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Actually, the primary people driving the issue are hard-core \"things must be equal\" types. Sure, that\'s a nice goal, but simply mandating it doesn\'t make it actually \"equal\". For example, look at what just recently happened here, with some people not getting any credit at all for work performed that just happened to get squashed by the server changes. Also, what about the fact that the SETI \"standard\" doesn\'t take into account that you can exceed the \"standard\" by using the optimized clients? How about trying to compare a project like ABC against SETI while using a K6-2? Since ABC is more integer math than floating point, the integer unit in the K6 will handle ABC better than what the floating point will do for SETI, seeing how the FPU in the K6 was very poor...



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good points all. Just a few of the thousands of reasons why it\'s impossible to award credits properly for a thousand different architectures running several different operating systems crunching over 30 different science apps. At the end of 2008 I bet there will 10 more projects each with their own idiosyncracies and hurdles pertaining to credits. A volunteer, non-profit community is going to overcome all that? Not in 20 years. Not in 100 years. You\'ll call me a pessimist today but in 20 years you\'ll know I was a realist with a firm understanding of how big the problem really is and how few resources this community has to throw at the problem. We haven\'t a snowball\'s chance in hell of seeing a good credit system, we need to admit it and waste no more time on it and get on with life and science.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 4918 - Posted 4 Feb 2008 15:57:45 UTC - in response to Message 4915.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think you would be surprised at how few would bail. The notion that credits drives the whole thing is false doctrine. If it were true then the projects offering high pay would be seeing huge gains in donated CPU cycles. But they\'re not. That tells me the vast majority crunch for some reason other than credits.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have pointed out the same thing - that the projects offering higher credits are not seeing huge gains in participants, but that fact seems to get lost in the noise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, I disagree that \"the vast majority crunch for some reason other than credits\". I think the better way to phrase that is:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  \"The vast majority already crunch a project based on the perceived scientific merit of the project or their own interest in the project, with credits not being that large of a contributing factor in their decision.\"


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fortunately, DA already sees that and that\'s why he\'s abandoned the benchmark scheme and is now putting the onus on projects. He\'s washed his hands of it all and is threatening to ask the stats sites to adjust the credits from \"bad\" projects. If the stats sites are ever foolish enough to open that can o\' worms it will explode in their face.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Asking people to manipulate factual data goes against the fundamental principles of the Scientific Method. I would hope that the stats sites\' owners will be strong enough to stand their ground and state that they are only reporting the facts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 4919 - Posted 4 Feb 2008 18:08:20 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This discussion has been beaten to death on every distributed
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    computing project I have participated in. The trick is stop
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    counting the angels on the head of this pin, and concentrate
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    on paying your electric bill. If the bill is just right, build
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    another rig.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you don't build them, you can't sweat them. Got Stock?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 4920 - Posted 4 Feb 2008 21:03:19 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Surely the easiest way is to drop the bottom line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Let projects pay whatever they want, keep the stats for people to compare with each other in any project, and get rid of [in my case]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      190,000 610 41,706 96.567%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I\'d prefer a nice certificate anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Daryl Lockwood
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 4942 - Posted 9 Feb 2008 0:58:37 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Only new to C@H.How long does it take to have the credits verified ? I have completed some WU over the last two weeks but have not had any verified.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cheers

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 4943 - Posted 9 Feb 2008 1:16:28 UTC - in response to Message 4942.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Only new to C@H.How long does it take to have the credits verified ? I have completed some WU over the last two weeks but have not had any verified.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cheers



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi DARYL- As soon as a wingman returns a successful result you will receive credit...of the 3 results returned 2 wingmen haven\'t returned anything yet before the deadline and one failed to meet the deadline, was re-issued to a new wingman and he gets 10 days from that point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Daryl Lockwood
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 4944 - Posted 9 Feb 2008 6:43:45 UTC - in response to Message 4943.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Only new to C@H.How long does it take to have the credits verified ? I have completed some WU over the last two weeks but have not had any verified.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cheers



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi DARYL- As soon as a wingman returns a successful result you will receive credit...of the 3 results returned 2 wingmen haven\'t returned anything yet before the deadline and one failed to meet the deadline, was re-issued to a new wingman and he gets 10 days from that point.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks heaps for your reply.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 5060 - Posted 8 Mar 2008 7:36:55 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last modified: 8 Mar 2008 7:39:15 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There is a problem in BOINC (and thus in BOINCstats) :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              BOINC does not measure the system time that a process produces.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That means that an application producing a high system load reports a too low CPU time to the core client.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Camb does produce a very high system load caused by a problem with the checkpoints. So if you compare credits per CPU second between different projects, you have to factor in the additional CPU time spent on system level.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You can see how much it is watching the CPU time increment per minute on the wall clock.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have set BOINCview to query all boxes every minute and casp often increases the CPU time only by 40 seconds per minute.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So overall, the credits here are not necessarily higher than in projects like SETI or Einstein, imo. they keep about the same level.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It depends a bit on the number of Cosmology tasks running, the system load share increases if there are more Cosmo tasks, if there\'s only one Cosmo task running together with different projects the effect is not that high.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              dpike
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 5488 - Posted 27 Mar 2008 1:43:28 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The drop from 100 to 80 credits sounds like it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                political and not in the best interest of the data that is being processed. The admins of this project should not bend to the political pressures of other projects as to the amount of credits assigned to a work unit and make a just and real assignment for the credit per work unit processed based on the information returned. I would like to see the amount of data processed vs the credit assigned to the work unit. On a floating type of credits per work unit as per SETI would make more sense than just giving a credit for a work unit processed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 5489 - Posted 27 Mar 2008 1:57:13 UTC - in response to Message 5488.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The drop from 100 to 80 credits sounds like it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  political and not in the best interest of the data that is being processed. The admins of this project should not bend to the political pressures of other projects as to the amount of credits assigned to a work unit and make a just and real assignment for the credit per work unit processed based on the information returned. I would like to see the amount of data processed vs the credit assigned to the work unit. On a floating type of credits per work unit as per SETI would make more sense than just giving a credit for a work unit processed.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think to \"keep the peace\", this was not a bad move. The better move would\'ve been what I suggested, which was to revert back to version 2.05 across the board. From there, the project could\'ve done a real job of testing the changes since 2.05 in both the application and the work generator.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the whole, as I have said recently elsewhere, the current credit system is so messed up that it is pointless to try to make corrections to the current system if the main framework remains mostly unaltered. IMO, the current credit system should be phased out and replaced with one that does give equal credit across projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The only somewhat reasonable objection I\'ve heard to cross-project parity is what Kevin (zeitgeistmovie) brought up about QMC; that his systems run hotter / consume more power doing QMC work. That could however be because of a poor coding implementation that needs addressing and once it is addressed the power usage / heat generation would drop.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 5490 - Posted 27 Mar 2008 2:00:39 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Last modified: 27 Mar 2008 2:35:20 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The admins of this project should not bend to the political pressures of other projects as to the amount of credits assigned to a work unit


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    WoW, your first Post and you got it totally wrong, but your entitled to your opinion as is every one else. If you knew anything about this project @ all you would know that it has always given an exceptional amount of credit, to much in fact most of the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The reason for the Credit reduction is because the Wu\'s at the moment are only about 1/4 to 1/3 in length that they were, thus the credit reduction ... :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 5496 - Posted 27 Mar 2008 4:08:33 UTC - in response to Message 5490.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The admins of this project should not bend to the political pressures of other projects as to the amount of credits assigned to a work unit


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      WoW, your first Post and you got it totally wrong, but your entitled to your opinion as is every one else. If you knew anything about this project @ all you would know that it has always given an exceptional amount of credit, to much in fact most of the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The reason for the Credit reduction is because the Wu\'s at the moment are only about 1/4 to 1/3 in length that they were, thus the credit reduction ... :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do not think so, when SETI went from the old to the new (boinc) there was a lot of changes that happened with the credits. I know as I had 4 machines crunching for SETI at that time. I have been crunching many projects and the only time that I have seen a drop in the credits is under political pressure. The admins of any project should allow the correct credits per work unit based on the time to crunch that work unit, the information coming back from a validated work unit, and the type of information vs the number of machines crunching that work unit. If a work unit takes 3 machines to have a validated result vs 2 machines or 1 machine (there are projects in alpha or beta that 1 machine is validated) should not that machine be allowed the full amount of credits as long as the result is validated? It is up to the admin of the project and only the admin as to the credit per work unit allowed. Most alpha projects allow a higher credit vs beta projects vs production projects due to the unknown factor for the application, the result return, and the validation of the result. I have a CPDN work unit that has been crunching for 45 days now, I do not care what the credit is going to be just as long as it is fair based on the time to crunch that work unit, but if I go looking at other work units that the time vs validation does not make sense I will be online asking what is going on.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 5499 - Posted 27 Mar 2008 8:57:42 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 27 Mar 2008 9:39:23 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have been crunching many projects and the only time that I have seen a drop in the credits is under political pressure.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So what your saying is even if the WU Length drops to just 5 min\'s long that we still should get 100 Credits Per WU or the Project is bending to Pressure if they lower the Credits, that sounds good to me ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The admins of any project should allow the correct credits per work unit based on the time to crunch that work unit


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hellooooooooooo, what do you think they are doing by dropping the Credit some, the WU Length dropped so they finally dropped the Credit to reflect that ... :)


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6054 - Posted 7 May 2008 13:42:50 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My Kid Friendly, non obscene, none sexual explicit or suggestive post...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          seriously when will i be able to fetch work when i want to? since weeks i have serious problems getting work from cosmo. Which directly affect my credits, i don\'t care how much we get, i just care that i can get work. I had a quadcore, dual core, and some more bits running dedicated on cosmo@home, now i had to divert my idle cpu time to other projects i\'m not even interested in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Could you please make a statement on the announcement/front page when WU\'s will be issued as like 2 months ago, when i could download all the WU\'s i needed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry if this is already answered, but i\'m really unhappy, trying to do a good thing, but the good thing seems to have broken down, and i don\'t have the energy to browse through the forum.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I strongly hope that i can start crunching cosmo wu\'s soon again like before, just with 50% less credit, but that is not important. I just want to crunch crunch and crunch some more :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6055 - Posted 7 May 2008 14:09:09 UTC - in response to Message 6054.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 7 May 2008 14:16:59 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My Kid Friendly, non obscene, none sexual explicit or suggestive post...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            seriously when will i be able to fetch work when i want to? since weeks i have serious problems getting work from cosmo. Which directly affect my credits, i don\'t care how much we get, i just care that i can get work. I had a quadcore, dual core, and some more bits running dedicated on cosmo@home, now i had to divert my idle cpu time to other projects i\'m not even interested in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Could you please make a statement on the announcement/front page when WU\'s will be issued as like 2 months ago, when i could download all the WU\'s i needed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry if this is already answered, but i\'m really unhappy, trying to do a good thing, but the good thing seems to have broken down, and i don\'t have the energy to browse through the forum.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I strongly hope that i can start crunching cosmo wu\'s soon again like before, just with 50% less credit, but that is not important. I just want to crunch crunch and crunch some more :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            G\'Day Evilslut82,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Whilst the question about getting work units has been posted in the wrong thread, the parts about credit were in the right thread.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The project will be taken down for most if not all of the 8th May in order to try and fix the problems with the database, this will then hopefully enable us all to get a more steady stream of work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Credit is not too bad on this project at the moment even with the reduction in credit awarded when the lensing component was taken out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It certainly is better than the 10 cr/h I get on Predictor and the 11 and 12 I get on Hydrogen, Spinhenge and Superlink under Linux.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6056 - Posted 7 May 2008 16:54:41 UTC - in response to Message 6054.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last modified: 7 May 2008 16:56:53 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              My Kid Friendly, non obscene, none sexual explicit or suggestive post...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              seriously when will i be able to fetch work when i want to? since weeks i have serious problems getting work from cosmo. Which directly affect my credits, i don\'t care how much we get, i just care that i can get work. I had a quadcore, dual core, and some more bits running dedicated on cosmo@home, now i had to divert my idle cpu time to other projects i\'m not even interested in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Could you please make a statement on the announcement/front page when WU\'s will be issued as like 2 months ago, when i could download all the WU\'s i needed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sorry if this is already answered, but i\'m really unhappy, trying to do a good thing, but the good thing seems to have broken down, and i don\'t have the energy to browse through the forum.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I strongly hope that i can start crunching cosmo wu\'s soon again like before, just with 50% less credit, but that is not important. I just want to crunch crunch and crunch some more :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There is supposed to be some Server Work done tomorrow the 8\'th, hopefully things will improve after that work is done & Wu\'s will be more easily obtained than they are now ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              PS: Oop\'s, sorry Conan, I didn\'t see you posted that info already ... :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6057 - Posted 8 May 2008 1:37:17 UTC - in response to Message 6056.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There is supposed to be some Server Work done tomorrow the 8\'th, hopefully things will improve after that work is done & Wu\'s will be more easily obtained than they are now ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                PS: Oop\'s, sorry Conan, I didn\'t see you posted that info already ... :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That\'s OK Poorboy,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am sure you were probably trying to work out what to do with your computers that have run out of work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Fear not, I am sure that after the server work you will be able to crack 100,000 RAC.


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6512 - Posted 14 Jul 2008 17:04:35 UTC - in response to Message 6511.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have been experiencing the same problem. Unfortunately my second choice project (rieselsieve) has been offline for a while. :(

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I suspect the root of the problem is a far greater number of participants than were expected. This is due to devaluation of processor time by seti. This caused a drop in seti participation. Rather than adjusting their credit up seti then exerted pressure on other projects to adjust their credit rates. As a result there are many users disappointed by prevailing credit rates who are running the few projects who have resisted the pressure. I wish more projects would do so and make it clear that participant processor time DOES have value and that value is NOT decided by seti.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am absolutely disappointed with the completely inflated and out of proportion credits rates you get here. Wouldn\'t it be for some valuable science that I hope for I\'d be gone long since this giving credit for next to nothing started.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Credits here on this project should be divided by 4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But the server issues should be solved before ;)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6535 - Posted 15 Jul 2008 6:32:24 UTC - in response to Message 6512.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    [quote]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Credits here on this project should be divided by 4.{/quote]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you\'re looking for a project that pays more/less that what \"you\" think is fair, feel free to email me and I\'ll be more than happy to point you to the ones that really give low cobblestones. At that point, you should be very happy.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6537 - Posted 15 Jul 2008 8:38:29 UTC - in response to Message 6512.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Last modified: 15 Jul 2008 9:24:50 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am absolutely disappointed with the completely inflated and out of proportion credits rates you get here. Wouldn\'t it be for some valuable science that I hope for I\'d be gone long since this giving credit for next to nothing started.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Credits here on this project should be divided by 4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But the server issues should be solved before ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Seems to me that your disappointed with a many of the Projects Saenger since I see you popping up at a lot of them complaining about the Credits. Maybe you should just give up running the BOINC Projects since they put you in such a continual depressed state of mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Or you could take Philadelphia\'s advice & let him point you in the direction of a Project or Projects that would make you a much happier person in life. In fact I\'m sure that many of us being the helpful sort we all are would be more than glad to show you a Project or Projects with low credits that would fit nicely with your low standard of living so you won\'t be so highly disappointed all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hopefully that would get you started on your road to recovery from your Chronic State of Mental Depression & once your Rehabilitation was completed in 10 to 12 Years you could once again fit into Society & semi-function as a useful person instead of being your usual self & a big full-time disappointment to all those around you ... :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6544 - Posted 15 Jul 2008 13:54:40 UTC - in response to Message 6537.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am absolutely disappointed with the completely inflated and out of proportion credits rates you get here. Wouldn\'t it be for some valuable science that I hope for I\'d be gone long since this giving credit for next to nothing started.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Credits here on this project should be divided by 4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        But the server issues should be solved before ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Seems to me that your disappointed with a many of the Projects Saenger since I see you popping up at a lot of them complaining about the Credits. Maybe you should just give up running the BOINC Projects since they put you in such a continual depressed state of mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Or you could take Philadelphia\'s advice & let him point you in the direction of a Project or Projects that would make you a much happier person in life. In fact I\'m sure that many of us being the helpful sort we all are would be more than glad to show you a Project or Projects with low credits that would fit nicely with your low standard of living so you won\'t be so highly disappointed all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hopefully that would get you started on your road to recovery from your Chronic State of Mental Depression & once your Rehabilitation was completed in 10 to 12 Years you could once again fit into Society & semi-function as a useful person instead of being your usual self & a big full-time disappointment to all those around you ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Non sono assolutamente d\'accordo!!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6556 - Posted 15 Jul 2008 15:41:10 UTC - in response to Message 6537.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 15 Jul 2008 15:41:58 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I am absolutely disappointed with the completely inflated and out of proportion credits rates you get here. Wouldn\'t it be for some valuable science that I hope for I\'d be gone long since this giving credit for next to nothing started.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Credits here on this project should be divided by 4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But the server issues should be solved before ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Seems to me that your disappointed with a many of the Projects Saenger since I see you popping up at a lot of them complaining about the Credits. Maybe you should just give up running the BOINC Projects since they put you in such a continual depressed state of mind.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Or you could take Philadelphia\'s advice & let him point you in the direction of a Project or Projects that would make you a much happier person in life. In fact I\'m sure that many of us being the helpful sort we all are would be more than glad to show you a Project or Projects with low credits that would fit nicely with your low standard of living so you won\'t be so highly disappointed all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hopefully that would get you started on your road to recovery from your Chronic State of Mental Depression & once your Rehabilitation was completed in 10 to 12 Years you could once again fit into Society & semi-function as a useful person instead of being your usual self & a big full-time disappointment to all those around you ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I\'m quite happy with my choice of projects, but of course they could be even better if a fair cross-BOINC credit system will be implemented.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Most of the projects run more or less smack in the middle, there are just some that seem to worth themselves so scientific unattractive that they give credits beyond reason (That\'s at least Cosmo and Milkyway, perhaps some of the more obscure as well), others that have such a great confidence in their worthiness that they give sub-standard credits (like WCG and LHC on my puter).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The range of credits per hour and core on my puter is from 10 to 110, my (cheatfree) bench value would be 25, I get about 30 on average from most of the projects. The real low end are some alpha projects, where such stuff is supposed to happen. That\'s the fun of being ATA ;)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6557 - Posted 15 Jul 2008 15:51:33 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That\'s the fun of being ATA ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I\'m not even going there with those Initials other than to say they fit you well ... :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6559 - Posted 15 Jul 2008 16:09:12 UTC - in response to Message 6556.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ...... but of course they could be even better if a fair cross-BOINC credit system will be implemented.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why don\'t you go write a paper on it and get back with us on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ____________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL!!!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6589 - Posted 16 Jul 2008 15:15:48 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ...... but of course they could be even better if a fair cross-BOINC credit system will be implemented.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This is a first, actually seeing somebody complaining about getting too much. Normally people don\'t worry about that so much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don\'t agree with a fair cross boinc credit system. I don\'t see the point of it, and i think it\'s up to the admins of the project to decide how much they want to hand out. And it\'s a great way to attract extra users to help on crunching.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And if something needs to be changed, then it should be the cheap ass projects to hand out more credits instead of cosmo less. It\'s already down at 50% since i first started. And Saenger even wants to have that divided by 4? Why don\'t you just get an extra computer to make up for your \'imagined\' losses.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                my penny...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6590 - Posted 16 Jul 2008 15:28:26 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you look at all the DC Projects (I\'m not talking about BOINC Projects but the DC Projects) theres a wide range of Credits given out (Some give 1 Credit while others give Hundreds of Credits) and I\'ve never seen 1 person complaining about too much or too little Credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I\'ve even run 1 of the DC Projects myself, it gave 1 Credit for each Wu like the old Seti Classic did, the Wu\'s lasted an hour or so but I didn\'t care. That 1 Credit was what everybody else was getting so it all came down to how fast you could Process the Wu\'s.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That\'s where BOINC got off on the wrong foot when it first started out with Seti@Home, they never should have given more than 1 Credit. It\'s been nothing but a headache ever since because a lot of people want more & more Credit. If the Credits where at 1 yet it would then just be a matter of preference on what Project you wanted to run.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course the Credit Whores would run the shorter WU Projects, thats a given, but I think most of the Projects would get their fair share of people to process their Wu\'s, The DC Projects seem to survive that way & a lot of people refuse to run the BOINC Projects because of all the Credit mess ... :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6591 - Posted 16 Jul 2008 16:12:18 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I\'m unsure how to respond to (and glad I don\'t have to) anyone who complains of too many credits here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have 6 projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    LCH and Predictor are so light with work that I couldn\'t tell if the credits are high or low, so they\'re out of my reckoning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    When Einstein and SETI are running, and I suspend the next two, my stats go up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    When I run Milkyway and Cosmology, my stats go down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I use the stats to see how my computer compares to others. It\'s not a high-powered machine; just middle of the road and over a year old, so at this point, I\'m holding my own.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6595 - Posted 16 Jul 2008 21:56:29 UTC - in response to Message 6590.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Of course the Credit Whores would run the shorter WU Projects, thats a given, but I think most of the Projects would get their fair share of people to process their Wu\'s, The DC Projects seem to survive that way & a lot of people refuse to run the BOINC Projects because of all the Credit mess ... :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Someone, somewhere, mentioned that people should just give up on the idea of BOINC-wide credit / standings and just focus on the individual project standings. I tend to agree with that, given all the various machinations that projects have gone through to try to \"level the playing field\" on their own by going to some target of a mythical \"reference\" computer. Without cooperation across the board from get-go, it really is too late now, unless current credit values are frozen and referenced like \"SETI Classic\", then everyone starts out with a new system from zero.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I also remember something about a system that is in use that does a BOINC-wide ranking based on the rank amongst all the projects, not the total credits. Of course, I could be needing another Mt. Dew.... :shrug:

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6598 - Posted 17 Jul 2008 9:21:03 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Credit does need to be reduced at this project, the only project that is more out of whach is rieselseive. Divided by 4 may be too much though, dividing by 3 would probably be closer to the average as reported by BOINCstats.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ____________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6599 - Posted 17 Jul 2008 10:56:49 UTC - in response to Message 6598.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Credit does need to be reduced at this project, the only project that is more out of whach is rieselseive. Divided by 4 may be too much though, dividing by 3 would probably be closer to the average as reported by BOINCstats.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          OK. Here\'s something to ask yourself:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Your first reaction will be \"because it needs to be fair across projects or else the projects that offer more will get more participants because they offer more\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Really?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why then are there only a total of 7,200(ish) users attached to this project? Why are people not flocking in droves here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Don\'t get me wrong. I understand the whole \"fairness\" argument and actually agree with that, but as I said in my previous post, it\'s too late for all that unless you want to freeze the existing stats, keep them around as a reference like \"SETI Classic\", and start everyone from zero. That will only work though with 100% spot-on compliance across the board from all projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Until a real and substantive \"equal credit\" algorithm / process is in place across all projects, all this whining about credit needing to be reduced is really quite silly...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          IMO, YMMV, etc, etc, etc...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6600 - Posted 17 Jul 2008 11:26:53 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 17 Jul 2008 11:27:36 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Why then are there only a total of 7,200(ish) users attached to this project? Why are people not flocking in droves here?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Very good argument Brian and it shoots down any reason for really needing Cross Project Project Parity other than D.A.\'s Appointed Crusaders wanting it their way.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6601 - Posted 17 Jul 2008 11:44:23 UTC - in response to Message 6600.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why then are there only a total of 7,200(ish) users attached to this project? Why are people not flocking in droves here?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Very good argument Brian and it shoots down any reason for really needing Cross Project Project Parity other than D.A.\'s Appointed Crusaders wanting it their way.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I had about 9 hours of sleep last night :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have to go to work... I have another thought on this that I\'ll share later...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6732 - Posted 24 Jul 2008 20:56:32 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                now my first \'long\' WU\'s are finished and they took about 3 to 5 hours of CPU time per WU. Thats an increase to the \'short\' WU\'s on my machine of about 400% to 600%. On the other hand the credit for these WU\'s is now 70. That\'s an increase of 40%. I think, that\'s definitely too low. With this CPU-load it should be at least at 150 (according to the shorter WU\'s even more) credits i guess...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6734 - Posted 24 Jul 2008 21:28:08 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the update, Scott. I\'m sure the situation will normalize in a couple of days.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, you haven\'t adressed the credit issue yet. The few 2.14s I have completed so far take 300%+ longer, yet I only receive 40% more credits. This large change will make a lot of people stop crunching, especially the credithounds wich quite often happen to have moderate or big farms.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Personally I don\'t think the credit should be increased linearly, but if you want to retain the crunching crowds I\'d consider at least another 200% / 100 credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Makes me think, credit sure is a means of crowd control for any BOINC project...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6735 - Posted 24 Jul 2008 22:30:50 UTC - in response to Message 6734.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Last modified: 24 Jul 2008 22:37:29 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Makes me think, credit sure is a means of crowd control for any BOINC project...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    [soapbox]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The stuff I was going to post the other day, the \"another thought that I\'ll share later\", well, here it is...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As I mentioned the other day, I think the BOINC-wide statistics are pretty much useless to use as comparison now because of the differing ways credit is given out per project and the differing amounts per project. You also have problems with the benchmarks and Linux which distort the whole system anyway...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So, in my opinion, when I see someone come along and start griping about credits being \"too high\" / \"outrageous\" / whatever, I think the main motivating factor is not really making sure that projects aren\'t competing for participants, but it is actually more about that individual\'s long-term BOINC-wide standing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Example:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was a SETI-only person for quite some time. I had gotten up to position 7893 in the world BOINC-wide back in August of 2007. Around that time, the \"big payout\" projects (RS, QMC) started picking up serious steam as far as the credit output, as mainly the \"credithounds\" you mentioned realized this and those people moved over. This would mean that someone who had even a relatively older system with no chance of keeping pace with a newer system, had a new significant advantage in moving up the BOINC-wide credit ladder.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is the link for that image

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That is my AMD system. The upward trend from Feb 2007 to July 2007 was because I was putting effort into Einstein and not SETI. However, notice how steep the rate I was losing ground became. Yes, some of it is because of new processors, but the high payout in projects that I was not attached to had to be the major impact there. I haven\'t had my AMD working as hard as my Intel on Cosmology, but you can see that when I did in April and May of this year the slope got smaller.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So, in this discussion on \"fair credit across the board\", I think it\'s a wonderful concept, but it wasn\'t built-in from the beginning, and the people that are really clamoring the loudest about it right now are those who have been around for quite some time and are *REALLY* interested in their BOINC-wide standings, despite saying they want projects to be selected on their scientific merit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Really, there are only a small subset of users who specifically \"chase credit\", so from a project perspective, and in fact BOINC-wide, those users are in the minority.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wish people would be honest with all of the rest of us when they start getting all bent out of shape complaining about \"excessive\" credits...and what ALL of the motives behind their complaints are....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    [/soapbox]

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6738 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 0:20:07 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Last modified: 25 Jul 2008 1:13:16 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Really, there are only a small subset of users who specifically \"chase credit\", so from a project perspective, and in fact BOINC-wide, those users are in the minority.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You may or may not be right, but I suspect it\'s a lot more than anybody cares to acknowledge. You don\'t see it so much in the project Forums but if you go to some of the Teams Websites you see a lot of talk about how much credit each project gives and how can I get more credit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Even if it is a small minority as you say don\'t ever underestimate the Processing Power they can put out & the drop in Production at a Project when they decide it\'s time to Pack up their Box\'s & move on to Greener Pastures.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Also another thing to consider is when somebody with a good size Pharm leaves a Project then many times the rest of the Team over a short period of time will leave the Project too because they don\'t have their Pillar of support anymore at the project.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I know that for a fact from being on different Teams, when I started crunching for a Project other Team members would join in with me & when I stopped crunching for a Project most of the other Team Members would quit too ...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6741 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 6:54:19 UTC - in response to Message 6738.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Really, there are only a small subset of users who specifically \"chase credit\", so from a project perspective, and in fact BOINC-wide, those users are in the minority.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You may or may not be right, but I suspect it\'s a lot more than anybody cares to acknowledge. You don\'t see it so much in the project Forums but if you go to some of the Teams Websites you see a lot of talk about how much credit each project gives and how can I get more credit.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Those are quite natural discussions to have in team-based forums. It\'s not that different from expecting a higher number of calls that are complaints and/or irate customers if working in a customer service call center...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyway, the vast majority of the BOINC populace are not members of teams. According to BOINCstats right now, 70.1% of users are not in teams. They\'ve got an additional stat that says that 60% of the teams are inactive at the moment. So, that stat says that 40% of 29.9% are active, or about 12% of the total user base are in teams and are active. Even if I were to be very generous and say that 75% of team members are \"credit chasers\", that drops the figure down to 9% of the total active user base. A more reasonable figure for what I think is reality: 10-20% of total active team members are chasing credit, which makes it only about 1.2-2.4% of the total active user base.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \"Credit chaser\" is defined as someone who specifically looks at credit per cpu second and researches which project grants the most and dedicates lots of resources to that project...and someone who complains LOUDLY when credits are reduced.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Even if it is a small minority as you say don\'t ever underestimate the Processing Power they can put out & the drop in Production at a Project when they decide it\'s time to Pack up their Box\'s & move on to Greener Pastures.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I know, and this is a \"power struggle\" that has played itself out many, many, many times. However, that too appears to be not so significant. Looking at the latest project that seemed to \"bend to the will of David Anderson\", QMC, you can see pretty much similar slope to the graphs over the past 18-24 months. Sure, thre are deviations, but no sustained large drops in output.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Anyway, what you\'re talking about are reasons to keep the credit amounts high. I was specifically speaking to the notion of BOINC-altruism coming from the people demanding lower credits so that \"people will choose the projects based on the scientific merit rather than the credit\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        To sum up, people who are already into it for the credit and the credit only are so competitive that they will still do their research to find the best granting projects over time... So long as the benchmark system that is known to be flawed is in use, there is no point in even having this discussion, from either side of the issue. No \"I want more credits or I\'m going to leave\" discussions...and no \"you are a greedy Project Admin because you give out ridiculous credits to lure people to participate in your project because, quite frankly, if all things were equal, your project sucks!\"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Brian - tired of the nonsense...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6742 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 8:05:50 UTC - in response to Message 6723.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Going from a high paying project to paying less per hour than seti standard app is pretty profound..


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just got some credit for 2.14 - 70 credit for a 9 hour monster!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hahahahaha! Very funny guys. No stop, really, it\'s just *too* funny! Not often that I see a project granting so little - Keep it up, you\'ll soon be down (and out) with Gerasim :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Best go and top up my credit at a high-payer like Seti ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Never mind, It\'s All About The Science Hehe ...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6743 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 8:47:22 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The good news is, there won\'t be any more server problems... What with the whole no longer having any participants thing and all. ;)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6744 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 10:58:34 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hours of processing and only 70 credits?!?!?!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Someone please tell me I\'m having a bad dream!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Project suspended for now. :-(

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6745 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 11:02:00 UTC - in response to Message 6744.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Hours of processing and only 70 credits?!?!?!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Someone please tell me I\'m having a bad dream!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Project suspended for now. :-(


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LOL ... Wake up your only Dreaming ... NOT

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6748 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 11:40:05 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, what you\'re talking about are reasons to keep the credit amounts high. people will choose the projects based on the scientific merit rather than the credit\".


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Actually it doesn\'t really matter to me what the Credit is at a project & I usually don\'t say much about it one way or the other, I just try to go with the flow & if I don\'t like it I leave rather than make a big fuss over it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also If people choose their Project because of the Scientific Merit a Project has we could just about eliminate all of the projects as having no Merit at all. Because in the 5+ Years the Boinc Projects have been going not 1 single Cure has been found for any Disease & not one single thing has been discovered in outer space to change any scientists mind about anything out there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So what it all boils down to for the last 5+ Years is that a whole lot of People have burned up a whole lot of Electricity & argued about the Credits ... LOL ... What a Hobby ... hehe

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6751 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 12:38:55 UTC - in response to Message 6748.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Because in the 5+ Years the Boinc Projects have been going not 1 single Cure has been found for any Disease & not one single thing has been discovered in outer space to change any scientists mind about anything out there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Lots of new primes have been found, some new undiscovered moves in chess, LHC knows for 99.99999999863% sure their concoction doesn\'t produce black holes that swallow the Earth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    At least these forums are keeping you busy. What would you do if they weren\'t here? :-)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6752 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 13:06:10 UTC - in response to Message 6751.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ...At least these forums are keeping you busy. What would you do if they weren\'t here? :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A Boinc forum is like a clothes washing machine, it just keeps agitating whatever is put into it.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6753 - Posted 25 Jul 2008 13:42:12 UTC - in response to Message 6751.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 25 Jul 2008 13:43:54 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Because in the 5+ Years the Boinc Projects have been going not 1 single Cure has been found for any Disease & not one single thing has been discovered in outer space to change any scientists mind about anything out there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Lots of new primes have been found, some new undiscovered moves in chess, LHC knows for 99.99999999863% sure their concoction doesn\'t produce black holes that swallow the Earth.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And that improves the Living Conditions or Feeds how many people now again ... ???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        At least these forums are keeping you busy. What would you do if they weren\'t here? :-)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        LOL ... Well to start out with I could have saved probably over $30,000 & that\'s not even counting the savings in the Electrical Bill ... :) ... Also my wife wouldn\'t be trying to have me Committed ... hahahaha

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6755 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 10:22:04 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I know, in the past, that people have said this project gives too much credit, but to change it so that it gives even less than WCG does not seem to be the way to resolve credit issues.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6757 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 12:20:51 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I know, in the past, that people have said this project gives too much credit, but to change it so that it gives even less than WCG does not seem to be the way to resolve credit issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That is precisely why I proposed to reward 170 credits in total, which is lower than before but still generally in the current \'middle 80%\' range for any system/OS/person.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6758 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 15:28:53 UTC - in response to Message 6757.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I know, in the past, that people have said this project gives too much credit, but to change it so that it gives even less than WCG does not seem to be the way to resolve credit issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              That is precisely why I proposed to reward 170 credits in total, which is lower than before but still generally in the current \'middle 80%\' range for any system/OS/person.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              We agree and will vote with our virtual feet. Sadly, the communication on this project has also slipped badly.....

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6761 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 21:32:01 UTC - in response to Message 6757.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I know, in the past, that people have said this project gives too much credit, but to change it so that it gives even less than WCG does not seem to be the way to resolve credit issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That is precisely why I proposed to reward 170 credits in total, which is lower than before but still generally in the current \'middle 80%\' range for any system/OS/person.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It still gives a lot more than WCG on my system, WCG gives usually below claim, Cosmo is still well above claim. I think it\'s now still in the upper 20% of the projects, but in an very acceptable area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ____________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6762 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 22:36:01 UTC - in response to Message 6761.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Last modified: 26 Jul 2008 22:41:57 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I know, in the past, that people have said this project gives too much credit, but to change it so that it gives even less than WCG does not seem to be the way to resolve credit issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That is precisely why I proposed to reward 170 credits in total, which is lower than before but still generally in the current \'middle 80%\' range for any system/OS/person.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It still gives a lot more than WCG on my system, WCG gives usually below claim


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Isn\'t that an issue with WCG? Why do you demand it to be something that this or any other project has to \"resolve\" by lowering credits to match an apparent defect in another project?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Cosmo is still well above claim. I think it\'s now still in the upper 20% of the projects, but in an very acceptable area.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Your computer is running Linux. The whole benchmark / claim process is known to be lower with Linux.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Why don\'t we be honest and admit that the fact that other people who have been around for less time that have been able to overtake you in the stats is at least some sort of motivation for your constant crusade against what is viewed as \"high credits\" from your Linux-oriented environment?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6763 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 22:54:38 UTC - in response to Message 6762.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I know, in the past, that people have said this project gives too much credit, but to change it so that it gives even less than WCG does not seem to be the way to resolve credit issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That is precisely why I proposed to reward 170 credits in total, which is lower than before but still generally in the current \'middle 80%\' range for any system/OS/person.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It still gives a lot more than WCG on my system, WCG gives usually below claim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Isn\'t that an issue with WCG? Why do you demand it to be something that this or any other project has to \"resolve\" by lowering credits to match an apparent defect in another project?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don\'t and I didn\'t. WCG is not so far off that I would ask for more credits, and it\'s a lie that Cosmo grants less than WCG.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Cosmo is still well above claim. I think it\'s now still in the upper 20% of the projects, but in an very acceptable area.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Your computer is running Linux. The whole benchmark / claim process is known to be lower with Linux.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Why don\'t we be honest and admit that the fact that other people who have been around for less time that have been able to overtake you in the stats is at least some sort of motivation for your constant crusade against what is viewed as \"high credits\" from your Linux-oriented environment?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I just answered the wrongful claim that 170 will be in the \'middle 80%\' range for any system/OS/person. 170 will be more then double of average for my system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ____________
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6764 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 23:05:55 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Last modified: 26 Jul 2008 23:09:29 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You may as well forget about him Brian, it\'ll only be a matter of time before Saenger\'s back in here again claiming the Credits are too high here & need to be lowered again because the Project gives him 1 more credit Per Hour than Project X does.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6765 - Posted 26 Jul 2008 23:15:59 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Flame (bait) worthy material, people. Please keep it civil.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6766 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 0:04:09 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 27 Jul 2008 0:07:48 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          E2200
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Measured floating point speed = 2848.9 million ops/sec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Measured integer speed = 6351.46 million ops/sec
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Win XP SP3

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cosmology@Home (CAMB 2.13)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          CPU time = (avg. of 10 WUs) 2 589 s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          claimed credit = (avg. of 15 WUs) 13,68 ..... 19 cr/h
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          granted credit = (avg. of 15 WUs) 50 (fixed) ...... 64,44 cr/h

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cosmology@Home (CAMB 2.14)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          CPU time = (avg. of 5 WUs) 14 400 s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          claimed credit = (avg. of 5 WUs) 80 ..... 20 cr/h
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          granted credit = (avg. of 5 WUs) 70 (fixed) ...... 17,5 cr/h


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My favourite WCG projects granted in the long run 18-20 cr/h -> Cosmo now stopped (2 and 4 cores PC)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6767 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 0:32:00 UTC - in response to Message 6763.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 27 Jul 2008 0:32:25 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I know, in the past, that people have said this project gives too much credit, but to change it so that it gives even less than WCG does not seem to be the way to resolve credit issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            That is precisely why I proposed to reward 170 credits in total, which is lower than before but still generally in the current \'middle 80%\' range for any system/OS/person.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It still gives a lot more than WCG on my system, WCG gives usually below claim

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Isn\'t that an issue with WCG? Why do you demand it to be something that this or any other project has to \"resolve\" by lowering credits to match an apparent defect in another project?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don\'t and I didn\'t. WCG is not so far off that I would ask for more credits, and it\'s a lie that Cosmo grants less than WCG.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I am not participating in WCG, so I cannot make a direct comparison, but I would tend to believe that the real answer is \"it depends\". Certain variables change what is seen by each user. Your choice of OS plays a major part in what you see as far as projects who use Benchmark * time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In any case, BOINC-wide standings are totally meaningless because of the fact that projects are not completely even across the board in regards to Credit per CPU second. Instead of being concerned that you are losing ground in the standings BOINC-wide against others because you are not as active in projects that grant more, why don\'t you channel that energy into coming up with a real \"equal credit\" system?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            BTW, yes, this means that I am sure that you are not making these types of requests out of pure altruism for BOINC as a whole. You should try to understand that the benchmark system is flawed and that forcing a flawed approach just for consistency\'s sake and so that it protects your own standings is not \"forward progress\".
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6768 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 1:53:37 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last modified: 27 Jul 2008 2:20:24 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On WCG all subprojects I have received so far grant slightly more than claimed on 45nm CPUs under Windows.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              On Cosmology some results grant slightly less than claimed on the same CPUs, but some grant more (and that \"more\" is not \"slightly\").

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So I think, that in average Cosmo is now on about the same level as WCG - for those CPUs under Windows.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Comparing credits isn\'t so easy. For the efficiency (and I don\'t mean the plain CPU speed here) of a computer, the OS can play a role, compiler quality and optimisations, memory throughput, L2 cache and sure some more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So even if two projects give exactly equal credits in average(!), it can easily happen that one box is much better for this or for that project.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Extreme examples for that are POEM and QAH. Whereas POEM really loves RAM throughput and doesn\'t care about L2 cache size at all, QAH really needs a big L2 cache, but cares not much about RAM speed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              An OCed Q9450 might beat a modern dual quadcore Xeon on POEM, whereas it has not much of a chance against the same Xeon machine on QAH.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Conclusion : It is very likely that both parties in this discussion here are right under the conditions that they have experienced. No need for a battle.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              p.s.: Of course the BOINC client plays a big role too. Even 5.10.28 and 5.10.45, which aren\'t too far from eachother, seem to have totally different benchmark results on nearly identical boxes. Saenger\'s benchmark isn\'t as low as some older Linux clients would have been, I guess they have worked on that lately and brought Linux and Windows closer together.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6769 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 2:32:34 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I decided to get a batch of 2.14 tasks to work on here on my AMD. I\'m currently projecting a minimum of 4 hours to complete the first task. The \"to completion\" timer is still going up though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So, let\'s be objective...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                70 / 4 = 17.5
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                70 / 5 = 14
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                70 / 6 = 11.667

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Now let\'s take a look at Saenger\'s Q9450...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The worst claim/grant ratio is for a 67.9 claim.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                70 / 9,646.06 = 0.0072568 cr / s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                0.0072568 * 3600 = 26.124 cr / hr

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If I take a look again at my host, I have a claim rate of 15.09/hr. This means that if this host takes any longer than 4.639 hours, it will be given less than the claim.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Looking at Conrad Poohs\' Pentium 4 3.00GHz system, it paints a very poor picture. As it stands, his system claimed 88.73 for 36,643.91 seconds, or only 8.717 cr / hr. He was granted 70, for a *real* cr/hr rate of 6.877. Since it is a hyper-threaded system, even doubling that gets up to a whopping 13.754, although a more realistic figure would be a 1.8x for having Hyper-Threading, so around 12.379 cr/hr.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I\'m sure my lowly Pentium 4 2.40 GHz without Hyper-Threading would be even worse, probably around 8-10 cr/hr...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Meanwhile, Saenger still thinks that this project is giving out \"too much\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As I said, it depends on your perspective... It looks like systems with high memory bandwidth and stronger FPUs are somewhat spared, but Pentium 4 and Athlon XP systems look to be in for massive decreases in both performance and credits.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6770 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 2:44:14 UTC - in response to Message 6768.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Conclusion : It is very likely that both parties in this discussion here are right under the conditions that they have experienced. No need for a battle.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, there\'s the rub. It is \"a battle\" to some. Some cannot seem to understand that their experience may be different from someone else\'s.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  For example, AMD64/Windows systems had a major performance disadvantage compared to equivalent AMD64/Linux systems over at Einstein during science run S5R2. If one were to look at a Linux system, one might\'ve had the idea of \"wow, credits are too high here\", and then those of us running Windows would\'ve gotten sacked with another round of credit lowering, making other projects more attractive if even slightly interested in performance / time...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What these \"Lower Credit Crusaders\" do is just as bad as what the \"Give Me More Marauders\" do, each in their own way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I said earlier, I\'m sick of this pedantic behavior by both sides of the issue. Put the effort into coming up with a real plan that can provide equivalent credit across the board

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  or

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  SHUT UP ABOUT IT!

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6771 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 3:13:20 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Athlon XP 1800+ (OCed) Thoroughbread (L2=256k), CC 5.10.28 Windows :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    17.04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    79.49
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    24.68
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    78.96
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    74.67
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    79.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    85.52

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    All values are claimed and all will give me 70 credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I\'m not sure about the 24.68 and 17.04 yet. If those are just leftover old WUs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    the average here might really be lower than WCG - which is already known as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    low-granting project.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But if those smaller WUs always pop in now and then, it isn\'t that bad here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We will have to watch it for a while I guess :-)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6772 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 3:43:12 UTC - in response to Message 6771.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Athlon XP 1800+ (OCed) Thoroughbread (L2=256k), CC 5.10.28 Windows :

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      17.04
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      79.49
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      24.68
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      78.96
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      74.67
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      79.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      85.52

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All values are claimed and all will give me 70 credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I\'m not sure about the 24.68 and 17.04 yet. If those are just leftover old WUs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      the average here might really be lower than WCG - which is already known as a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      low-granting project.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But if those smaller WUs always pop in now and then, it isn\'t that bad here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      We will have to watch it for a while I guess :-)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I\'m almost positive those two will grant 50.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From what I\'ve been able to research so far by looking at the top computers list, my system will make out just barely better than claimed. The only reason for that is that it is so heavily overclocked. I have a 3700+, but it is clocked at 2.75GHz with DDR-500 memory, so the performance is somewhere between a FX-55 and a FX-57 system.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All Athlon 64 X2 3800+ systems I\'ve looked at are all claiming in the 80s on a consistent basis... A 5000+ system is claiming around 75 consistently. I haven\'t found a 5200+, which is what I\'m probably closest to, since FX systems are hard to come by...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Again, Saenger needs to step back and understand that what he is personally seeing is not what everyone else sees. There is no way I\'m bringing my Pentium 4 back to this project until something is done about the performance or the credit. I\'m borderline on my AMD too. I like the science of this project, but not if I\'m going to have to go through another round of credit lowering to suit people like Saenger...especially since that system (AMD) seems to already be right on the edge of granting less than claimed...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6773 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 3:46:55 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 27 Jul 2008 3:48:15 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The 24.68 (which is older than the 17.04) has already granted 70

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The 17.04 has a problem, it is a re-delivered 2.12 workunit, 2.12 and 2.14 seem to be incompatible (no consensus yet)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When the next result pops in, it will most likely be a 2.14 and the WU will grant 70 - I\'m quite sure.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6774 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 4:20:19 UTC - in response to Message 6773.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 27 Jul 2008 4:25:03 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The 24.68 (which is older than the 17.04) has already granted 70

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The 17.04 has a problem, it is a re-delivered 2.12 workunit, 2.12 and 2.14 seem to be incompatible (no consensus yet)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          When the next result pops in, it will most likely be a 2.14 and the WU will grant 70 - I\'m quite sure.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Probably so. That\'s cool, I suppose, but with what you posted your average claim is 62.77. Take out those two outliers though and you\'re up to 79.53. With a grant of 70, that means the grant is about 12% less than claim.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As you said, it would depend on the frequency of the shorter-running tasks... Do you have any way of going back and making sure that lensing was turned on for those?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Edit: BTW, if those of you who have these huge farms or fast processors would stop being so secretive and not showing your computers, those of us, like myself, that have no life and don\'t mind browsing through results to find answers to these burning questions would find things a bit easier... :hint:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6775 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 7:11:26 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            No backup, so I cannot check the WU input for lensing anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The redelivered ones still give 50 with 2.14 btw. ... and 0.00 for the 2.12 wingmen, even though they didn\'t have errors.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6776 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 9:38:26 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Edit: BTW, if those of you who have these huge farms or fast processors would stop being so secretive and not showing your computers, those of us, like myself, that have no life and don\'t mind browsing through results to find answers to these burning questions would find things a bit easier... :hint:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Ya, I was them guys weren\'t so secretive either ... :P

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6777 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 11:33:03 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                mmmm kay...well now let\'s see..OK, so I was a bit bored, (not really) So decided to do as best I could figure, some math across multiple projects to see how they compare on a single host. As always YMMV.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So, these were all crunched on the same host, headless, with nothing besides the OS and Boinc running. I used a stock HP pavillion s3000. It has an AMD x2 4200+ and runs BOINC 6.3.5 under Linux: 2.6.24-19-generic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                As many WUs as I could were averaged together to calculate the results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I still have many other WUs pending credit from some other projects I hadn\'t crunched in ahwile. However, now that I am bored, here are the results I have thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In no particular order:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Cosmolgy - 17,386.77 secs earned 70 credits or 14.49 cr/hr (347.76 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                YOYO - 6,133.03 secs earned 37.71 credits or 22.14 cr/hr (531.36 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Orbit - 866,501.05 secs earned 2,657.97 credits or 11.04 cr/hr (264.96 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                SETI - 5,362.2 secs earned 28.65 credits or 19.23 cr/hr (461.52 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Rosetta - 10,530.74 secs earned 43.30 credits or 14.80 cr/hr (355.2 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Einstein - 27,498.93 secs earned 237.53 credits or 31.096 cr/hr (746.3 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LHC - 2,364.98 secs earned 6.74 credits or 10.26 cr/hr (246.24 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ABC - 12,567.47 secs earned 126.72 credits or 36.29 cr/hr (870.96 per day)


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6778 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 12:23:22 UTC - in response to Message 6777.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mmmm kay...well now let\'s see..OK, so I was a bit bored, (not really) So decided to do as best I could figure, some math across multiple projects to see how they compare on a single host. As always YMMV.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So, these were all crunched on the same host, headless, with nothing besides the OS and Boinc running. I used a stock HP pavillion s3000. It has an AMD x2 4200+ and runs BOINC 6.3.5 under Linux: 2.6.24-19-generic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  As many WUs as I could were averaged together to calculate the results.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I still have many other WUs pending credit from some other projects I hadn\'t crunched in ahwile. However, now that I am bored, here are the results I have thus far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  In no particular order:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Cosmolgy - 17,386.77 secs earned 70 credits or 14.49 cr/hr (347.76 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  YOYO - 6,133.03 secs earned 37.71 credits or 22.14 cr/hr (531.36 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Orbit - 866,501.05 secs earned 2,657.97 credits or 11.04 cr/hr (264.96 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  SETI - 5,362.2 secs earned 28.65 credits or 19.23 cr/hr (461.52 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rosetta - 10,530.74 secs earned 43.30 credits or 14.80 cr/hr (355.2 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Einstein - 27,498.93 secs earned 237.53 credits or 31.096 cr/hr (746.3 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  LHC - 2,364.98 secs earned 6.74 credits or 10.26 cr/hr (246.24 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ABC - 12,567.47 secs earned 126.72 credits or 36.29 cr/hr (870.96 per day)



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  LOL ... I laugh all the time at the ABC Project mainly because at 1 time it was one of the Worst Projects for Credit & now it\'s one of the best Projects for Credit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A little story about the ABC Project Follows: I was a Mod there when the Project first started out, admittedly briefly though. I feel that was in part due to the fact that privately behind the scenes in e-mails I tried to explain to Hendrick that he had to raise the Credits if he ever expected the Project to ever amount to anything.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  All of a sudden Hendrick said they didn\'t need any Forum Mods & they would do their own Modding of the Forums & took the Mod Job away from me and the other Mod\'s. Well the Participation at the Project started to suffer because he wouldn\'t raise the Credits like I warned him.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I went off & started running other Projects but after a time decided to check back in on the ABC Project again. Much to my surprise the Credits were way higher than what they were when I left the Project, so I don\'t know what happened other than Hendrick seen the Light I guess and raised the Credits so the Participation at the Project would raise too.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6779 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 13:13:08 UTC - in response to Message 6769.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Meanwhile, Saenger still thinks that this project is giving out \"too much\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don\'t and I\'ve said so. Imho they are just fine for my system. I wouldn\'t complain about 80, but would as well not complain about 60.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I\'ve seen in the other posts here that Linux obviously suits this project better so I will get more than average here, and since Windows is still the main OS that\'s fine with me. So if that\'s the reason I will not complain about even more. The same is over @Einstein, where I get the same credits per WU as the windows computers, but need only half the time. The Win app should be made as fast as mine asap, and credits stay for them i.e. reduced for me, but that\'s another project, not this one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As you\'ve shown your c/h ratios, here are mine:


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Superlink has a credit cap, I broke it quite severe several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My computer is this one.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Grüße vom Sänger


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Questions about Boinc are answered in the BOINC-Wiki

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6780 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 13:38:06 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Looking at Conrad Poohs\' Pentium 4 3.00GHz system, it paints a very poor picture. As it stands, his system claimed 88.73 for 36,643.91 seconds, or only 8.717 cr / hr. He was granted 70, for a *real* cr/hr rate of 6.877. Since it is a hyper-threaded system, even doubling that gets up to a whopping 13.754, although a more realistic figure would be a 1.8x for having Hyper-Threading, so around 12.379 cr/hr.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I\'m sure my lowly Pentium 4 2.40 GHz without Hyper-Threading would be even worse, probably around 8-10 cr/hr...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Original Pentium 4\'s never were really any good for Crunching the Projects & you would be hard pressed to find any Project that gives them a decent amount of Credit, even the slightly newer D Model P4\'s weren\'t much better. I Upgraded all of mine as fast as I could to the Core2\'s & Quad CPU\'s when they came out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have 1 P4 Laptop left though that cost me around $3200 & needs about $200-$300 to get running again but I haven\'t bothered with it because I\'m not sure I even want to spend that kind of money on it for what it will produce @ the projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My thinking is to just scrape it out to the junk pile & spend the $200-$300 on some of the parts to build another Quad Core Box ... :P

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6781 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 14:51:17 UTC - in response to Message 6777.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 27 Jul 2008 15:02:12 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Direct compare against one of my computers, a P4 3.0GHz HT, WinXP Pro SP2:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cosmolgy - 17,386.77 secs earned 70 credits or 14.49 cr/hr (347.76 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        SETI - 5,362.2 secs earned 28.65 credits or 19.23 cr/hr (461.52 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Einstein - 27,498.93 secs earned 237.53 credits or 31.096 cr/hr (746.3 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cosmo - 10,634.45 earned 50.00 credits or 16.93 cr/hr (406.23 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        SETI long - 10,502.11 earned 50.74 credits or 17.39 cr/hr (417.43 per day)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        SETI short - 4,432.52 earned 20.09 credits or 16.31 cr/hr (391.42 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Using Optimized application - Version info: SSE2x (AMD/Intel, Core 2-optimized v8-nographics) V5.13 by Alex Kan.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Einstein - 50,367.49 earned 237.81 credits or 16.997 cr/hr (407.937 per day)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Einstein - 53,494.74 earned 237.81 credits or 16.00 cr/hr (384.09 per day)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The thing with Einstein is that the time you spend on a task fluctuates highly, but the credit is always in the same ballpark due to them using the floating point capability of your CPU.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just showing you mine for comparison. I\'m sure it will show differently on everyone else\'s computers. I\'m even sure it will show different outcomes on my other computer.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For all I care all projects follow QCN Alpha\'s example: no credit.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jord.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6782 - Posted 27 Jul 2008 21:02:13 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Let’s face the facts:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Motor vehicles run on fuel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Computers run on electrical power.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Human beings run on food.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Crunchers run on credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I agree 100% with Slicker’s post in “Why do you participate in Cosmology”

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          “I participate to further human knowledge of the universe. NOT!!! I crunch strictly for the credit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Credit is all I get for the hundreds of dollars a year spent on electricity to power (and cool) my machines. So, when Cosmo drops from the top 3 BOINC projects for awarding credit, you will likely see me leave unless someone volunteers to subsidize my electric bills.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for your honesty!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Next- Q
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Why the big fluctuation in time for a w/u?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Wu_ ID 4912708 = 17059 secs. to complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Wu_ ID 4916025 = 5851 secs. to complete
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Both granted 70 credits on the same host

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6785 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 5:40:56 UTC - in response to Message 6779.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 28 Jul 2008 5:41:25 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Meanwhile, Saenger still thinks that this project is giving out \"too much\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don\'t and I\'ve said so. Imho they are just fine for my system. I wouldn\'t complain about 80, but would as well not complain about 60.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, I\'m \"complaining\" now about 70. Turns out I was wrong. So far, both results that I\'ve reported and the one I\'m currently working on are taking over 5 hours, thus I\'m requesting 75-80, but will be getting only 70.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10866964 4958581 27 Jul 2008 0:38:34 UTC 28 Jul 2008 5:30:37 UTC Over Success Done 18,945.25 78.90 pending
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10866961 4958580 27 Jul 2008 0:38:34 UTC 28 Jul 2008 3:02:41 UTC Over Success Done 18,283.63 76.15 pending


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So, you tell me, is this \"fair\"? Are you at least beginning to see that what you see on your system is not necessarily what the rest of us see on ours?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This fixed credit is simply not going to work, if it is less than claimed. Either it needs to be bumped up to around 100 (for minimalists, like yourself), or more like 150. Only other thing to do is to switch to where it actually grants the claimed amount.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6791 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 12:20:55 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last modified: 28 Jul 2008 12:22:23 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All your views have been heard as I am now getting ZERO credit for my current 6 HOUR work units.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So the people who say \"I am only here for the science\" will be happy, as it is now only science.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All the others who cried that Cosmology pays too much credit should also be happy, as it is not paying too much any more.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6796 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 17:14:45 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 28 Jul 2008 17:17:27 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Snedegar.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                No wonder you are crazy, you are using the claimed/granted in BOINC to justify your claims of \"too much credit\"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This does not work. Neither does cross project parity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If an employer(the project) wants to hire and retain workers(the participants) he will pay more. If he does not want to hire and retain workers, then he pays less.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                So it seems that Cosmo has decided that they have enough participants, and those participants who know their real value will start looking for new places to work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Isn\'t the free market a wonderful thing!!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                However this ==== >>>> just does not work for anyone unless you consider yourself a slave http://www.cosmologyathome.org/workunit.php?wuid=4889562
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Zero credit granted for the entire group!! - and this is not the only instance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6797 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 17:24:41 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Last modified: 28 Jul 2008 17:25:52 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Update:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  During the course of the past 12 hours, I did have one task that was a short-running task. I previewed all of the .INI files ahead of time and all of them were do_lensing = T, so it was not expected. Even still, I am only just barely averaging a claim that is close to what should be granted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here\'s the math:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  78.90
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  78.76
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  77.36
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  76.15
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  40.94

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Avg. Claimed Credits: 70.422
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Avg. Claimed Credits without the outlier: 77.793

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It should be noted that my system is among the fastest single-core systems around. This means that AMD K7 / K8 systems are most likely all going to be claiming more than they are granted.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6798 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 17:39:50 UTC - in response to Message 6791.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    All your views have been heard as I am now getting ZERO credit for my current 6 HOUR work units.... .


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Great, one of your results has this : errors Too many success results

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That\'s about the weirdest BOINC bug ever - I will better not tell what I\'m currently thinking about the BOINC developer, who invented max_success_results

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6799 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 18:09:39 UTC - in response to Message 6798.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All your views have been heard as I am now getting ZERO credit for my current 6 HOUR work units.... .


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Great, one of your results has this : errors Too many success results

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That\'s about the weirdest BOINC bug ever - I will better not tell what I\'m currently thinking about the BOINC developer, who invented max_success_results


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Must\'ve been a Liberal Democrat... They tend to like to punish success....



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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6800 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 18:58:07 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 28 Jul 2008 19:57:43 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Attn: Saenger

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You had brought up how it was \"a lie\" that Cosmology has a payout less than WCG. I cannot get into discussing who is right and who is wrong in that argument, but I can tell you that from the perspective of my computer, Cosmology now has a payout of either the same or only slightly better than LHC.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Over there, I have a result that ended up like this (time/claim/grant):

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        17,894.03 76.52 67.39

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You can\'t look at the workunit right now because of a bug they have with their server-side code update. However, that looks very similar to what will end up being the case here...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If one looks at the illustrious chart at BOINC Combined Statistics that David Anderson (and you, via proxy) loves to reference to justify the Great Credit Crusade, this is what you find for LHC:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Horizontal row: SETI@home 1.000 (333425) LHC@Home 1.451 (2156)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Column: LHC@home 0.689 (2156)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So while you think things are \"just right\", from my vantage point, I\'m now contributing to a project that has a payout considerably less than SETI.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Oh, and while I\'m thinking about it, benchmarks are the wrong thing to be focusing on. I was very dense over the past couple of days (lack of sleep will do that), so I wasn\'t comprehending that the benchmarks are going to slide down for the rest of the K7/K8 line as the cpu/mem clock goes down. This is what explains Ananas\' K7 having similar claimed credits to my K8, although my system is obviously faster.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The real metric to look for is cr/hr. My K8 is in the low teens. I would guess that slower K8 systems and K7 systems will be 5-10 cr/hr as far as credits over real cpu time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is exactly why these stupid credit parity crusades irritate various users. Your view of \"just right\" means that a great many of us, who are not your \"traditional credit hounds\" get shafted.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6802 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 21:01:59 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry to be the one continually posting here, but it\'s my day off, so in lieu of a real life, here I am...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyway, that beautiful short-running task is apparently in the midst of being totally offset by a long-running task. Current estimates of the WU I\'m working on now show it at 7 hours. If that holds, claimed credit will be around 105, but only granted 70, for a cr/hr rate of 10, or 33% less than claimed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6803 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 21:22:56 UTC - in response to Message 6802.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry to be the one continually posting here, but it\'s my day off, so in lieu of a real life, here I am...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Where do you work, we\'ll see if we can\'t get that day off canceled in the future ... :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6804 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 21:46:43 UTC - in response to Message 6803.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Where do you work, we\'ll see if we can\'t get that day off canceled in the future ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It\'s his only day off for the rest of the month, done so he can show he has a personal life and is able to see his loved ones. That that\'s us is scary, but can\'t be helped. :)
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6806 - Posted 28 Jul 2008 23:16:11 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 28 Jul 2008 23:23:40 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                {cough}

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From Eric J. Korpela:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                SETI@home has been granting about 15% more credit per cpu second than comparable projects. Other projects have threatened to increase their own credit multipliers to compensate. The problem is that they all have different ideas about how much credit we should be granting. One project has threatened to give 50% more credit per second than the benchmarks would indicate they should. So to avoid the coming credit war, BOINC is implementing this credit multiplier BOINC wide. This will be an objective way to make sure that projects don\'t grant too much credit. In other words, this will (probably) be happening at most every cpu intensive BOINC project.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Read the rest yourself, just pointing out the obvious. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                {cough 2}

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                From the same post:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Q. Does this mean SETI@home will grant my machine fewer credits than <other BOINC project>?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A. Probably not. SETI@home currently grants more credit than most other BOINC projects. This multiplier will level the playing field somewhat. When other projects start to use this multiplier, the playing field will be very level.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                waits...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6807 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 0:14:17 UTC - in response to Message 6806.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  SETI@home has been granting about 15% more credit per cpu second than comparable projects. Other projects have threatened to increase their own credit multipliers to compensate.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wasn\'t that the other way around ? DA threatened other projects to manipulate stats ;)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6808 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 0:34:48 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wonder how long it will be before some of the BOINC Projects tell Dr. A where he can shove the BOINC Platform & go the DC Route ... ???

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6809 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 1:39:58 UTC - in response to Message 6808.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I wonder how long it will be before some of the BOINC Projects tell Dr. A where he can shove the BOINC Platform & go the DC Route ... ???


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      They don\'t have to go the DC Route .... it\'s quite simple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How will they force the projects to update the server software ? They can\'t.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Second thing is a bit harder though... make the participants aware/realize that there\'s no need to upgrade to boinc 6.2.x...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      S@H can have it\'s thing and will die peacefully along with arecibos shutdown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Problem solved.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6810 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 1:58:48 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 29 Jul 2008 2:11:56 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        He says this is to avoid a war? From where i\'m sitting it looks like it just began.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        My favorite quote from the article:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        \"SETI@home would then \'legitimately\' be able to claim more credit per CPU second than everyone else.\"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don\'t take that out of context, read the whole post.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        However, I think that does gives an interesting insight into the psychology over there. Doublespeak anyone? Where\'s Zeitgeist?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        *immediately downgrades all hosts to 5.10.45*
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6811 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 2:05:08 UTC - in response to Message 6809.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 29 Jul 2008 3:51:25 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I wonder how long it will be before some of the BOINC Projects tell Dr. A where he can shove the BOINC Platform & go the DC Route ... ???


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          They don\'t have to go the DC Route .... it\'s quite simple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          How will they force the projects to update the server software ? They can\'t.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Second thing is a bit harder though... make the participants aware/realize that there\'s no need to upgrade to boinc 6.2.x...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          S@H can have it\'s thing and will die peacefully along with arecibos shutdown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Problem solved.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There is still the stats sites manipulation threat lets not forget....they seem to have all the bases covered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6813 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 4:13:46 UTC - in response to Message 6806.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            {cough}

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From Eric J. Korpela:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            SETI@home has been granting about 15% more credit per cpu second than comparable projects. Other projects have threatened to increase their own credit multipliers to compensate. The problem is that they all have different ideas about how much credit we should be granting. One project has threatened to give 50% more credit per second than the benchmarks would indicate they should. So to avoid the coming credit war, BOINC is implementing this credit multiplier BOINC wide. This will be an objective way to make sure that projects don\'t grant too much credit. In other words, this will (probably) be happening at most every cpu intensive BOINC project.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Read the rest yourself, just pointing out the obvious. ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            {cough 2}

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            From the same post:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Q. Does this mean SETI@home will grant my machine fewer credits than <other BOINC project>?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A. Probably not. SETI@home currently grants more credit than most other BOINC projects. This multiplier will level the playing field somewhat. When other projects start to use this multiplier, the playing field will be very level.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            waits...


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How about the optimized apps there that allow higher CPCS? How about the fact that people like DA and cohorts like Saenger seem to think that the chart at BOINC Combined Statistics is \"Gospel\", when it is not? How about the fact that my AMD system, one of the fastest single-core systems in use in BOINC, cannot process tasks here fast enough to even be rewarded at approximately benchmark * time level, yet if DA & Co. are to have any say about it, this will drop the credit EVEN MORE?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is stupid...

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6814 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 4:20:57 UTC - in response to Message 6807.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              SETI@home has been granting about 15% more credit per cpu second than comparable projects. Other projects have threatened to increase their own credit multipliers to compensate.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Wasn\'t that the other way around ? DA threatened other projects to manipulate stats ;)



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              No, he threatened to have the statistics sites manipulate the stats. I sent him an email about it, questioning why as a \"scientist\" he was advocating violating a fundamental principle of the Scientific Method by manipulating the actual data. He declined to answer, instead telling me I \"didn\'t understand\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It\'s too late to do it tonight, but when I get home tomorrow I\'m pulling my Intel off of SETI and I guess putting it onto Einstein...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              :shrug:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6815 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 5:24:23 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The 7-hour monster that I thought I had has jumped in processing significantly. There must be a point in the processing where the intensive portion stops. It is now on track to finish in about 5.25 - 5.5 hours...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I\'m off to bed...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6816 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 14:07:06 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over 6,5 hour WUs now on C@h and only 70 CS in credits per unit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It\'s a lousy credit, Cosmology have always before had very fair credits, but not now ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I\'m at least taking a break from C@H now ...
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6822 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 23:23:00 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I will not be getting any additional projects from here. There new improved credits are way to low. What were they thinking???

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    XB-STX
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6823 - Posted 29 Jul 2008 23:29:50 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah, no credit degradation in this project, nope, none indeed...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://boincstats.com/charts/chart_uk_cosmology_project_new_credits.gif

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      16% of the recent trend in credits. A six-fold decrease.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now, let\'s be fair - a couple of possible factors, including longer times to crunch means there is a gap from 2.12 to 2.14. Fair enough. That was a week ago, so we should be moving past that, but in fact we are DECREASING further. Perhaps crunchers are leaving the project? Fair enough - might be due to a lower burn rate per hour, might be due to longer crunch times per WU. Might even be due to the fact that grants are [often] lower than claims.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Look on the bright side here - fewer crunchers for an ALPHA project will result in lower server loads, fewer bottlenecks, etc. etc. etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It\'s been fun, but for all the frustration, one thing that make it worth sticking around for was fair credit allocation, maybe even generous to a fault. Yet I, for one, find this project has easily moved down to #3 (or LOWER) on each of my clients\' mix of projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry, but the frustration coupled with credit PENALTIES no longer make it worth the kwh for me to invest further.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Rgds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      XB

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6824 - Posted 30 Jul 2008 1:29:42 UTC - in response to Message 6823.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now, let\'s be fair - a couple of possible factors, including longer times to crunch means there is a gap from 2.12 to 2.14.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        What happened is the instant a host completed a wu with lensing enabled, their Duration Correct Factor went through the roof. This is having an effect on the time that BOINC thinks it needs to report to get more work. For my system, I downloaded about 1 days worth, but at an estimated rate of 1-1.5 hours per task. Instead, tasks are taking 4.5-5.5 hours (on average), thus what I downloaded was actually enough for 4-5 days worth. This will also likely cause BOINC to go into \"High Priority\" mode (formerly called Earliest Deadline First) and will likely cause allocation issues with other projects, potentially with various people missing deadlines and not getting credit, as well as the impact here for reissued tasks once the deadlines are exceeeded.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Another thing to watch out for here are those people who are caught up in the \"too many error results\" / \"too many success results\" situations where they received 0 credit. It is entirely possible with the mostly-absent project staff here that those results will purge from the database.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        All in all, this was very poorly thought out and very poorly implemented, much like the \"New Deal\" (the new credit proposal from SETI & Co.).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        XB-STX
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6825 - Posted 30 Jul 2008 2:17:26 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Although I do not disagree with you, I would postulate that given sufficient time (say, for laughs and giggles, another seven days) that the graph listed below does not *materially* improve. Then you are back to the big three possible reasons why - crunchers leaving the project, results hung in the pending queue waiting a round or two for a wingman, or the third reason - overall credit grants are materially lower than they should be / need to be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          When the clients in my farm now take 250% ~ 600% of the original time to crunch a WU, but are only granted 140% of the prior credit, this results in a net of 23% to 56% of prior credit. And while I can probably live with 56% consistently across all my clients, I cannot justify 23% - this takes the project (for those particular clients) down to number 4 of 5 projects on the list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I was with the project when lensing was a part of the work cycle, but even then, my lowly AMD Duo-Core never took 14 hours to complete a workunit! Now, 14 hours for this client is the norm, and not the exception.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is resource reallocation, plain and simple. If the project felt they had too many crunchers, they would have done themselves a service by saying as much. There are other ways to throttle back the project, than to piss off a lot of people for no good reason.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          JMHO, and my $0.03 (increased for inflation, decreased for currency devaluation - but at least not deflated by this project!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Rgds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          XB

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Profile Cactus Bob
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6828 - Posted 30 Jul 2008 3:04:42 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 30 Jul 2008 3:33:23 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just jumped back in fray so to speak, a couple months back. Joined seti in 99 and things were simple back then. Your credits showed how many WU you completed and how many hours you donated. Everyone was on an even play field. BOINC messed that up and opened pandora\'s box. The whole project is now an open market. A cruncher gets paid in points for the hours he/she donates. Points being nothing more at this juncture than bragging - status - whatever. Down to brass tax

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            16K seconds of crunching = 70 units at cosmology@home
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            20K seconds of crunching - 235 units at einstein@home

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I could show others that pay my rigs better units/hours but the bottoms line is a lot of us will go where the \"pay\" is not on the lower end. right now cosmology@home has 51% active users ( users who have contributed points in a month) if that drops a lot in the next 30 days, C@H may want to reconsider its pay scale.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hope this adds some useful fuel to the fire

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cactus Bob

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Profile ChertseyAl
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6836 - Posted 31 Jul 2008 8:27:04 UTC - in response to Message 6742.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just got some credit for 2.14 - 70 credit for a 9 hour monster!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I should have kept quiet ... Most of my pending WUs have received the grand total of zero. I expect the last three stragglers will get zapped too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Great. Smashing. Super.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Al.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6837 - Posted 31 Jul 2008 11:42:27 UTC - in response to Message 6836.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Last modified: 31 Jul 2008 11:46:05 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just got some credit for 2.14 - 70 credit for a 9 hour monster!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I should have kept quiet ... Most of my pending WUs have received the grand total of zero. I expect the last three stragglers will get zapped too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Great. Smashing. Super.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Al.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yep, I called it... I mentioned something about the validator handling both properly. Seems as though it declares 2.12 tasks already reported as \"checked but no consensus\" when the quorum is formed with a task processed by 2.14, gets sent to another 2.14, which then causes the 2.12 task to be declared invalid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The Server Status page, *IF* it is to be trusted, shows that db_purge is running again. I hope I\'m wrong about my other prognostication (that these tasks will purge before the mainly-absent project staff can address things).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Profile Westsail and *Pyxey*
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6840 - Posted 31 Jul 2008 14:37:53 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Last modified: 31 Jul 2008 14:50:18 UTC



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  edit to add:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bloody thing looks like the stock market.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  XB-STX
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6892 - Posted 2 Aug 2008 19:13:29 UTC - in response to Message 6823.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, no credit degradation in this project, nope, none indeed...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://boincstats.com/charts/chart_uk_cosmology_project_new_credits.gif

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    16% of the recent trend in credits. A six-fold decrease.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, let\'s be fair - a couple of possible factors, including longer times to crunch means there is a gap from 2.12 to 2.14. Fair enough. That was a week ago, so we should be moving past that, but in fact we are DECREASING further. Perhaps crunchers are leaving the project? Fair enough - might be due to a lower burn rate per hour, might be due to longer crunch times per WU. Might even be due to the fact that grants are [often] lower than claims.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Look on the bright side here - fewer crunchers for an ALPHA project will result in lower server loads, fewer bottlenecks, etc. etc. etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It\'s been fun, but for all the frustration, one thing that make it worth sticking around for was fair credit allocation, maybe even generous to a fault. Yet I, for one, find this project has easily moved down to #3 (or LOWER) on each of my clients\' mix of projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry, but the frustration coupled with credit PENALTIES no longer make it worth the kwh for me to invest further.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rgds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    XB


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yup, still the same:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://boincstats.com/charts/chart_uk_cosmology_project_new_credits.gif

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    XB

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rick6718
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 6893 - Posted 2 Aug 2008 20:51:57 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If their desire was to vastly reduce the number of work units crunched, and reduce the number of crunchers, they have had an amazing success. And in such a short period of time too! This will help enable them to keep there server running for many years without having to up grade. I wish them the best of luck attracting and maintaining crunchers in the future.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      STE\/E [BlackOpsTeam]
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 6894 - Posted 2 Aug 2008 21:17:26 UTC - in response to Message 6893.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If their desire was to vastly reduce the number of work units crunched, and reduce the number of crunchers, they have had an amazing success. And in such a short period of time too! This will help enable them to keep there server running for many years without having to up grade. I wish them the best of luck attracting and maintaining crunchers in the future.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        They can probably sell what Server Equipment they have now & get cheaper Server Hardware, that way they would have some spare change laying around for Coffee & Doughnuts in the Server Room ... LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 6904 - Posted 4 Aug 2008 3:37:42 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From my vantage point, it would appear that credit needs to be increased by 25% to be just equal to SETI after the claimed reduction there. However, this will only make it roughly equal to the stock SETI application. The optimized SETI application will still be able to get a higher amount of credit/hour...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Justification:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If current rate is approx 70% of SETI, 70/4 = 15. 70+15 = 85. SETI is claiming that they are intending on a reduction of around 15%, so they will be down to 85% of the current level, thus making credit \"equivalent\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If runtimes are not going to improve, credit here needs to at least be increased to 85/task.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          STE\/E [BlackOpsTeam]
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 6906 - Posted 4 Aug 2008 8:54:09 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I ran some of the SETI Wu\'s with 3 different Optimized Applications that you can get right on the Message Boards in both a Linux & Windows OS Environment & there was very little difference in the amount of credit I received. It was always in the 80-85 Credits Per Hour - Per Core Range. So even if they cut their Credits by 15% that would only be a 12-13 point Credit reduction for me which would still leave me with 72-73 Credits Per Hour - Per Core.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The New & much longer Wu\'s here with the CAMB Turned back on were taking me 4-5 Hours to do which equals about 14-18 Credits Per Hour - Per Core with the new & improved 70 Credits Per Wu Allowance & thats actually being a little bit generous with the figures by rounding them off to the highest number.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So if we increase those Slightly Generous 14-18 Credits Per Hour - Per Core Figures by 25% I would now get 18-23 Credits Per Hour - Per Core & thats once again being Generous with the figures by going to the next highest number.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Soooooooo I see absolutely nothing there Credit Wise that would entice any Credit Chasers as you call them back to the Project that left it because of the Severe Credit Reduction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As far as I can see Scott not only shot himself in the foot with the recent Credit Reduction but he blew his whole dang foot off by the Severity of it. But of course Scott in trying to sell his new bitter tasting Snake Oil Credits to the Participants called it a Credit Increase back on the 22\'nd of July, 2008.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The new CAMB is now up and work generation has commenced; in addition, credit for the new WUs has been increased, since lensing is now re-enabled.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But as I\'ve always professed while running the BOINC Projects it\'s each Projects Dev\'s Project & they can do as they wish with them when it comes to Credits Granted just as their my Computers & I can do anything I wish with them when it comes to the Credits their getting & there should never be any hard feelings between the two of them ... ;)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 6907 - Posted 4 Aug 2008 10:48:52 UTC - in response to Message 6906.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Last modified: 4 Aug 2008 10:51:39 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              So if we increase those Slightly Generous 14-18 Credits Per Hour - Per Core Figures by 25% I would now get 18-23 Credits Per Hour - Per Core & thats once again being Generous with the figures by going to the next highest number.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Don\'t know who originally said this, but yes, that\'s the general point of \"Cross-project parity\". From what I\'ve been able to gather, 15-23, maybe as high as 25, is basically the target range based on the \"standard\" of benchmark * time. If you bring up the subject of the optimized SETI application giving more than that, you are treated as though you have three heads...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Stefan
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 6909 - Posted 4 Aug 2008 14:07:58 UTC - in response to Message 6907.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Just looking at the graphs it seems like there is a great dropout in number of active hosts since this whole new credit scheme came into play. If the trend continues it doesn\'t look too good. Now I\'m usually not too picky on credit, after all one does it for the science, but the drastic reduction of credit is a bit extreme. I went from 30 to 55 minute WU granting 50 credits to 3 to 4+ hrs granting 70. A mere 10 extra credits for a quadruple in time! Compare that to an Einstein unit that goes 3.5 to 4.5 hrs on the same machine and gets 237 credits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It just seems so out of whack compared to other projects. The 50 beforehand was a bit over generous, but the 70 now is just plain stingy...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                And I think a good portion of hosts are thinking that way too...




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                STE\/E [BlackOpsTeam]
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 6911 - Posted 4 Aug 2008 15:01:05 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It\'s nothing to worry about, their just the 1.2-2.4% of the total active user base that Brian said were Credit Chasers, we\'re, eerrrrrr, they are insignificant really and have no impact at all on a Projects Production since their less than 3% of the Total Users ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 6912 - Posted 4 Aug 2008 22:07:55 UTC - in response to Message 6911.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Last modified: 4 Aug 2008 22:49:31 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It\'s nothing to worry about, their just the 1.2-2.4% of the total active user base that Brian said were Credit Chasers, we\'re, eerrrrrr, they are insignificant really and have no impact at all on a Projects Production since their less than 3% of the Total Users ... :)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    :-P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, I couldn\'t help but notice that my estimated completion times had gone up over 5 hours today. Looking around, I noticed that one task in particular took 24,455.05 seconds for a claimed credit of 99.79. I don\'t know how more ironic it could be, as 99.79 was also the figure I posted at SETI for the boiling point of water at 1 atm with a flawed measurement rate of 20%, but I digress...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    70 * 3600 / 24,455.05 = 10.30 cr/hr

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Guess that will \"bring balance\" to those short-running tasks, eh Saenger?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    39.82 + 39.29 + 39.75 + 99.79 = 218.65 claimed (claim avg = 54.66)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    In theory 280 granted, for 51.35 (23.48%) over the amount claimed Making out like a bandit, eh?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The total claimed credit of all my 70-credit tasks comes to 1361.49. There are 22 tasks. 1361.49 / 22 = 61.89 avg. claim...for only 178.51 credits over the claimed amount, or a mere 13.11% over the claim.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yet, SETI\'s optimized application will give me much more than that, if I were to use it... The lowest pending cr/hr I have right now over at SETI with my Pentium 4 (the AMD has no tasks) is around 17 cr/hr... My AMD usually runs in the 25-35 range... (per BOINCstats, .009661 cr/s, or 34.78 cr/hr) or \"triple\" the amount of LHC, yet that chart won\'t reflect that, only the \"average\".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nobody can seem to define what \"parity\" really means. It is like when Liberal Democrats want \"the rich\" to \"pay their \'fair share\' of taxes\", but you cannot ever get a Lib to define who are \"the rich\", nor what a \"fair share\" really means... It\'s all a bunch of class warfare hoopla to try to win on the populist sentiment...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    [/rant]

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 7054 - Posted 17 Aug 2008 7:41:17 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Missing Credits

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi; Just will like to know what happen with the credits for this WU\'s

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wu_072508_105347_0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wu_072508_111823_1
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      wu_072708_025119_0

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ulf Ohlsson
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 7055 - Posted 17 Aug 2008 9:25:37 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Last modified: 17 Aug 2008 9:26:17 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As a new participants in this project i dont think its fear that credits given are much less then the work units would have regarded me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Unless it was to high before the credits now given isnt attractive to new participants perhaps i\'ll get back some day but for now i will finnish the rest of my WU\'s and turn to another project

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Rick6718
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 7061 - Posted 17 Aug 2008 20:50:46 UTC - in response to Message 7055.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As a new participants in this project i dont think its fear that credits given are much less then the work units would have regarded me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Unless it was to high before the credits now given isnt attractive to new participants perhaps i\'ll get back some day but for now i will finnish the rest of my WU\'s and turn to another project



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If the credit was increased at the same rate as the length of the work units my numbers show it should be 190. That would equal the 50 I was getting for about 45 minutes of work. Sure seems like the project is losing many former hosts!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          James Nunley
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 7066 - Posted 18 Aug 2008 1:40:06 UTC - in response to Message 7061.



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If the credit was increased at the same rate as the length of the work units my numbers show it should be 190. That would equal the 50 I was getting for about 45 minutes of work. Sure seems like the project is losing many former hosts![/quote]


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sounds about right to me

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nothing But Idle Time
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 7068 - Posted 18 Aug 2008 11:44:15 UTC - in response to Message 7061.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As a new participants in this project i dont think its fear that credits given are much less then the work units would have regarded me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Unless it was to high before the credits now given isnt attractive to new participants perhaps i\'ll get back some day but for now i will finnish the rest of my WU\'s and turn to another project



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If the credit was increased at the same rate as the length of the work units my numbers show it should be 190. That would equal the 50 I was getting for about 45 minutes of work. Sure seems like the project is losing many former hosts!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Credit has always been acceptable to generous here at Cosmo in spite of what some people believe. Participants and their hosts are \"leaving\" because they (like me) think the project is out of control and mired with problems that cause \"no work sent\" and \"there was work but for other platforms\" messages. Some are content to let their BOINC message logs fill up with these messages but I choose to suspend until the problems are fixed. Anyone seen OhioMike lately, a long time contributor now aloof?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              STE\/E [BlackOpsTeam]
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 7069 - Posted 18 Aug 2008 12:01:42 UTC - in response to Message 7068.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Credit has always been acceptable to generous here at Cosmo in spite of what some people believe. Participants and their hosts are \"leaving\" because they (like me) think the project is out of control and mired with problems that cause \"no work sent\" and \"there was work but for other platforms\" messages. Some are content to let their BOINC message logs fill up with these messages but I choose to suspend until the problems are fixed. Anyone seen OhioMike lately, a long time contributor now aloof?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree with that pretty much, I do feel the Credit has been cut to far though & needs a little adjustment upwards of around 20% - 25% ... Although it was nice the Credit had to be adjusted downward here at Cosmo to satisfy the Cross Parity people. It\'s being done at other Projects too so people may as well get used to it because it is what it is as the saying goes ... :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think OhioMike just got feed up with the Project and moved on as many people have. His Account Data Page shows a little activity at Einstein but other than that he\'s dormant @ the BOINC Projects. He could be running some of the DC Projects instead though ... :)

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 7071 - Posted 18 Aug 2008 15:09:38 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The credit that was granted before the lensing portion was disabled was 100. Now that lensing has been re-enabled, we should get that again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am definitely taking a break from here, but will be back when all the download/upload/reporting issues have been worked out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 7072 - Posted 19 Aug 2008 0:24:33 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Agreed. Count me in as another who is also fed up with the unprofessional handling of this project. I now have but one host on a 1/25 share, peeking in intermittently, waiting until this project has grown up a bit more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Rgds
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    XB

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 7112 - Posted 23 Aug 2008 19:33:13 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Last modified: 23 Aug 2008 19:33:55 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Credits were fun and only that compensates for my electrical bils. Seems now that is time to search some more green man. see ya!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mscharmack
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 7233 - Posted 9 Sep 2008 20:23:35 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Cosmo is now a poor site for credit. 70 credits for 6 hours work - just stupid to continue if you don\'t have a super fast computer.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 7234 - Posted 10 Sep 2008 1:51:05 UTC - in response to Message 7233.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Cosmo is now a poor site for credit. 70 credits for 6 hours work - just stupid to continue if you don\'t have a super fast computer.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As announced on the front page news the new credit level will be 120 credits per task when the HR issues are resolved and new work is issued under the new HR formula.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Brian Silvers
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 7235 - Posted 10 Sep 2008 5:25:09 UTC - in response to Message 7234.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Cosmo is now a poor site for credit. 70 credits for 6 hours work - just stupid to continue if you don\'t have a super fast computer.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            As announced on the front page news the new credit level will be 120 credits per task when the HR issues are resolved and new work is issued under the new HR formula.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hopefully there won\'t be a bunch of angst from people who don\'t remember that the project is beta and those of us over here might not get any credit (not to mention that the science may not be valid in the event of credit not being awarded)...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Why do I feel that\'s just a pipe dream and soon the illustrious chart will be brought to bear on the project?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Message 7236 - Posted 10 Sep 2008 15:33:15 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Even 120 is low for 7 hours work. I get over twice the amount on MW@Home for the same amount of computer work. So tell me again, why should I keep contributing my computer time here?

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Message 7237 - Posted 10 Sep 2008 15:38:02 UTC - in response to Message 7236.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Depends on whether you like the science or are only in it for the credits. If for the credits, then you know where to go. If you like the science as well, there should be nothing in your way of staying here.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Message 7238 - Posted 10 Sep 2008 16:54:38 UTC - in response to Message 7236.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Even 120 is low for 7 hours work. I get over twice the amount on MW@Home for the same amount of computer work. So tell me again, why should I keep contributing my computer time here?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I\'m not going to tell you to keep contributing your computer time here. MW@Home pays more credit on average per second of CPU time than ANY OTHER BOINC project, so clearly you should contribute where you get what\'s important to you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ____________

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 7240 - Posted 10 Sep 2008 19:27:53 UTC - in response to Message 7236.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Even 120 is low for 7 hours work. I get over twice the amount on MW@Home for the same amount of computer work. So tell me again, why should I keep contributing my computer time here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    MW is far off the average, they give ridiculous amounts of credit for their WUs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This project has adjusted the credits towards the general average of BOINC, that\'s what I consider fair and fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you don\'t care whether your credits represent what you crunched, and don\'t care aboit the science, go to those projects that grant as much as they can regardless of the crunchers efforts. If you like a fair competition and/or the science here Cosmo is just the right thing for you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ____________
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Grüße vom Sänger


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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Message 7243 - Posted 11 Sep 2008 1:06:46 UTC - in response to Message 7240.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      MW is far off the average, they give ridiculous amounts of credit for their WUs.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      You were the person I was thinking about when I mentioned \"angst\"... MW is also a beta project. How do you propose to entice people to participate in a beta project? Sure, some will do it \"for the science\", but not everyone. As an enticement to test, and run the risk of getting nothing, I think a more generous amount is fair. If you want to argue that it isn\'t, then I don\'t know what to say...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hmmmm.... Maybe BOINC needs two credit buckets? One bucket for \"production\" projects and one for \"test\"? The test bucket would be reported separate and will have no cap on it, but the production bucket will try to conform to the Cross Project Parity scheme du jour...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Would that kind of an arrangement help you to become less stressed out over the \"ridiculous\" amounts being offered by projects that are still in test mode?
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Message 7244 - Posted 11 Sep 2008 10:07:15 UTC - in response to Message 7240.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MW is far off the average, they give ridiculous amounts of credit for their WUs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This project has adjusted the credits towards the general average of BOINC, that\'s what I consider fair and fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        If you don\'t care whether your credits represent what you crunched, and don\'t care aboit the science, go to those projects that grant as much as they can regardless of the crunchers efforts. If you like a fair competition and/or the science here Cosmo is just the right thing for you.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Then why are you hiding your credits at PS3GRID?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Don’t they “give ridiculous amounts of credit for their WUs”
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        With all due respect you sound like a spoiled brat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Please say something constructive … or keep silent

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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Message 7246 - Posted 11 Sep 2008 15:21:36 UTC - in response to Message 7244.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Last modified: 11 Sep 2008 15:22:25 UTC

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Then why are you hiding your credits at PS3GRID?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don\'t know what you are talking about, I\'m not hiding anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          My puter is not hidden in any project, I even mentioned my credits over there in the forum.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don\'t crunch there atm, as the BOINC client with CUDA didn\'t seem to run good on my machine. I\'m waiting for a more stable BOINC with CUDA or Folding-GPU-Linux to arrive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          With all due respect you sound like a spoiled brat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Please say something constructive … or keep silent

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Talking about credit parity is something constructive, denigrating people who like fairness is not constructive in any way. The spoiled brats are those that want their credits for free to brag with them on BOINCstats.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Would that kind of an arrangement help you to become less stressed out over the \"ridiculous\" amounts being offered by projects that are still in test mode?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don\'t see a reason for beta projects to give out more credits. If your in it just for credits, don\'t crunch beta. Credit jerks don\'t help beta projects much. I see a reason for projects that only give out Uppercase (BelgianBeer, SecondComputing) not to give any credits, because nothing is done there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I see of course some valuable discussion about the different possible measurements of a fair BOINC wide credit system, perhaps the current benchmark-based way, that mainly looks for CPU-stress, is not everything and bandwidth use, RAM- and HDD-use and whatever else should be included somehow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          MW gives out more than 4 times what\'s asked for by my machine, that\'s by far the most of all projects after this one here cut back to normal.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Message 7247 - Posted 11 Sep 2008 15:42:16 UTC - in response to Message 7244.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Last modified: 11 Sep 2008 15:43:16 UTC


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Then why are you hiding your credits at PS3GRID?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Don’t they “give ridiculous amounts of credit for their WUs”




                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Just to make one thing clear before the credit Cops arrive over there -
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There\'s nothing wrong with the credits given from PS3GRID/GPUGRID. They use FLOP counting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It\'s only that a PS3 or a NVIDIA GPU is a little bit faster than a normal CPU... ;)
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